The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Order. I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question, Vikki Howells.

<p>Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting people who have been affected by chronic obstructive pulmonary disease? OAQ(5)0263(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Our approach to respiratory health is set out in the national delivery plan, and is being led by the respiratory health implementation group.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister. I recently met with the British Lung Foundation to discuss access to pulmonary rehabilitation services for the 2,000 people in my constituency living with COPD. While those in the north Cynon GP cluster are transported to Merthyr with relative ease, those in the south can face difficulties, having to travel to Tonypandy, often over two mountains, for their pulmonary rehabilitation. Ahead of tomorrow’s World COPD Day, what can the Welsh Government do to improve access to this cost-effective treatment in the Cynon valley?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we do recognise that there are areas where access is difficult, and it’s why we’re improving access to validated exercise programmes as part of the respiratory disease implementation group’s priority areas. The group is creating an all-Wales data set, to better understand provision and uptake, in order to make sure that the reach is as deep as possible, in order for the programmes to be delivered properly. So, access is an issue that is being considered at this moment in time.

Suzy Davies AC: The national exercise referral scheme can help with the rehabilitation of people with COPD, as well as, of course, people with other health issues. The scheme is funded by Welsh Government but, nevertheless, local authorities in South Wales West charge for the service. Access to the scheme is through GP referral and, bearing in mind that, obviously, your Government supports free prescriptions, why is this, which is effectively exercise on prescription, any different?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, if somebody receives a prescription, of course, then the approach can be different. But we want to make sure that there is a fair balance between what an individual is expected to contribute and what is available to that individual. And we see that there are good results. For example, there’s been a decline in the overall rate of people dying from a respiratory health condition by 10 per cent, as well as an 11.1 per cent decline in the number of emergency admissions related to respiratory conditions between 2013 and 2014.

<p>The President-elect of the United States of America</p>

Gareth Bennett AC: 2. What discussions has the First Minister had about welcoming the President-elect of the United States of America to Wales? OAQ(5)0266(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: None as yet.

Gareth Bennett AC: I thank you for your concise answer, First Minister. Now, I understand that arrangements about the new President—the President-elect—visiting Wales are in the future, but, in terms of trade, I wonder whether you would acknowledge that we now have a future President who is in favour of, and he’s vocally enthused about, striking a trade deal with the UK, and this may lead to a better prospect—[Interruption.] It may lead, despite the naysayers, it may lead to better prospects for a post-Brexit Wales—[Interruption].

I can’t hear the question; allow the question to be heard.

Gareth Bennett AC: I apologise, Llywydd.

No, it’s not you who needs to apologise; it’s the others.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you, Llywydd, for telling them off. First Minister, are you enthusiastic, as I am, about the future prospects for a post-Brexit Wales with President Trump?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I remain to be convinced. And the reason why I say that is that Donald Trump was elected on the basis of putting America first. On that basis, I don’t see that free trade agreements are going to be high up in his agenda. He has said that he wants to unravel global trading arrangements. So, we will have to wait and see. I mean, clearly, there’s work to be done in order to make sure that the UK is in as strong a position as possible post Brexit, but I see no evidence yet to suggest that America will become an exponent of free trade agreements that are balanced and not wholly in favour of one side rather than the other.

Rhianon Passmore AC: In Islwyn, we celebrate the historic USA-Wales special relationship with great pride, in General Dynamics, with their base in Oakdale. And, at the important recent summit, those close ties between Wales and the USA were reaffirmed, with the Ministry of Defence signing a £3.5 billion deal, to order 589 SCOUT specialist vehicles. That deal ensured that the 200 employees employed by General Dynamics in Oakdale will have guaranteed work for the next decade. So, will the First Minister outline what plans he has to build on his very successful trip to the USA in September of this year and ensure more American companies want to invest in Wales and our wonderful workforce?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, the message has been that Wales is open for business, and we carried that message to America. The US is a hugely important investor in the Welsh economy. There are two questions that are still posed by US investors: firstly, will they be able to access the large European market if they are based in the UK on the same terms as now? That’s not yet been answered. Secondly, will the regulatory regime be different in the UK compared to the EU? That’s a question that troubles them. So, we need to see answers to those questions as quickly as possible in order to make sure that the flow of investment continues.

Bethan Sayed AC: First Minister, I think it would be funny if it wasn’t so serious that UKIP is rushing to welcome the President-elect to Wales without actually discussing the fact that this candidate, President to be, has been espousing misogyny, sexism and homophobia to the rest of the world, and we should be very, very concerned about this. I wonder, in the whole debate around Brexit, the United States and the current discussion around politics, how you will be working to restore faith in politics so that we can try to see through the darkness of some of these discussions. I was at an Asylum Justice meal last night trying to support those who need our help, as opposed to building barriers against supporting them. How can we, as a nation, support those very people who need our support when we have such leaders as Trump in this world?

Carwyn Jones AC: Real leaders build bridges, not walls—that’s the one thing we have to remember. Humanity does not prosper when countries try to cut themselves off from each other. That leads to conflict, and we see from history where that leads. The President-elect will have a huge task on his hands to unite his very divided country—there’s no question about that. We’ve seen in the past week that America is far from being a country at ease with itself, and he will have a significant task to do in order to move forward towards a more united country. He will clearly have to tone down, at the very least, some of the remarks that he made during his election campaign. There are signs that that might be happening, but we wait to see what happens when he is inaugurated in January.

<p>Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders</p>

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, do you agree that cuts to disability benefits and changes to assessments brought in by Westminster Governments have gone too far and are now harming people who are in genuine need?

Carwyn Jones AC: There’s no question at all in my mind that what’s been done by the UK Government with regard to benefits has targeted the most vulnerable. The bedroom tax is one example of that, and she has mentioned another example there. From my perspective, society is judged according to how well it looks after its most vulnerable, not by targeting its most vulnerable.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you, First Minister. The Ken Loach film ‘I, Daniel Blake’ is resonating with people everywhere. I’m sure you’ll be aware that that film explores hardship, the root causes of hardship and how the system seems to be rigged against those people who are most in need of help. A major part of the hardship experienced by disabled people has come down to flaws in the way in which assessments are carried out. Will the First Minister accept that general practitioners and doctors should be the people making assessments of disability, and that there should be no barriers for disabled people to getting the support that they deserve?

Carwyn Jones AC: I could not disagree with either of those comments that she’s made. GPs are perfectly well qualified to make an assessment as to whether somebody should qualify for a particular benefit or not. Similarly, of course, I do worry about the fact that those people who are having to go through a number of obstacles in order to claim a benefit are being dissuaded from doing so, and that means greater hardship for them. There are some who may not even want to go through that process in the first place, despite the fact that they may be entitled to benefits. That is where we are, unfortunately, at the moment as a society, where those people who most people would accept need help from the state are being dissuaded from getting that help.

Leanne Wood AC: I share your concerns, First Minister, and I’m glad that you agree with my position. I’ll give you an opportunity to demonstrate how much you agree. I’ve got a constituent who is claiming employment support allowance and wishes to claim a disability grant in order to enter education. Her GP is demanding that she pays a charge of £95 for completing the forms. Without those forms, she won’t get the grant and, therefore, won’t be able to study. I’ve had it confirmed that students may have to pay to get disabled students grants, and that GPs may charge for this work, which the British Medical Association guidance suggests could be a charge of £90 for 20 minutes’ work. That’s what they say is appropriate, and that is more than you are earning as First Minister. Do you think it’s appropriate that the NHS that you’ve been running for 17 years is putting substantial financial barriers in the way of disabled people trying to improve their lives? And will you commit to getting rid of these charges as soon as is possible?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, this is the difficulty with the independent contractor model: GPs do charge for services that go beyond the contract, which is why, of course, as Members have heard me say in this Chamber before, there are other models that we need to consider in the future. She has raised an important point on behalf of her constituent. If she writes to me with more details about the case she has raised, I will, of course, write back to her with a personal response.

The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the Government announced last week that an extra £50 million was to be made available for winter pressures—something we hope will actually alleviate some of the pressures that the acute or primary sectors faced this summer, so that people don’t have the waits they’ve historically had to endure. One of the things that people do dread undertaking these days is ringing their local GP surgery to try to get an appointment, especially an appointment on that particular day, because obviously the demand is so great. Can you tell me exactly how that £50 million or what part of that £50 million will go into general practice to alleviate the pressures that general practice in particular is facing in accommodating the extra demand that it is facing?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, GP surgeries organise themselves in different ways. Some do offer appointments on that day, and I’ve seen them. Others, for reasons that they have to explain, will wait for a week or two, or sometimes even longer. That’s not acceptable for the people who they serve, but the money for winter pressures is designed, of course, to ensure that the health service is able to deal with any pressures that may arise as a result of colder weather, where people come in with respiratory conditions, for example. We know that if they’re admitted to accident and emergency departments with respiratory conditions, they tend to be admitted and wait longer in hospital. And we know that the health boards, as they have done in years gone by, are planning for winter pressures, and the money will be available in order for them to be able to meet those pressures.

Andrew RT Davies AC: It wasn’t a trick question, First Minister; I genuinely do want to see this money used to help people get the appointments they require. Forty per cent of people do say that they have problems in getting an appointment on the day that they ring their surgeries up, whatever part of Wales they live in. So, I’d be really grateful if you could say exactly how the improvements can be brought forward in general practice, with this additional money—the £50 million that will go into the acute and the primary sector—to alleviate some of those pressures, but, importantly, how, over the lifetime of this Assembly, with the budget that you have, you will increase the availability of services within the primary sector and get more GPs into surgeries, wherever they may choose to operate in Wales, because that clearly isn’t happening at the moment.

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s not just about GPs; it’s about all the services that the health service offers. For example, people can be diverted away from needing to go into hospital if they get support at home through social services, which is why, of course, we’ve made sure that the social services budget has not been cut to the extent that it has been elsewhere. We’ve ensured, of course, that where GP practices no longer exist, that the health board takes those practices over and they offer a better service, actually—they offer a better and more holistic service than what has gone on before, as the people of Prestatyn will explain. But, of course, we know that there’ll be many people who have to be admitted to hospital, and it’s hugely important that that money is available for the hospitals to deal with any extra increases in A&E admissions.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, we’ve actually seen the money going into general practice declining over the last four years—a £20 million decline over the last four years. That’s why the Royal College of General Practitioners have a campaign at the moment to increase the overall take of the NHS budget going into general practice up to 11 per cent of the budget by 2020. Can you commit to meeting that aspiration from the royal college and, indeed, will you commit to there being more general practitioners in Wales at the end of this Assembly term than there are at the moment? We understand these things do take time, but you have now four-and-a-half years left of the mandate where you can make those changes, you can make those investments that the royal college are talking about, and you can start to recruit the extra staff that are required to create that doorway into the NHS, given that the first point of contact for most people—90 per cent of people—is their general practice.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the royal college of GPs look at it purely in terms of the number of GPs. That’s not sufficient. We have to look at other professionals, such as occupational therapists, such as community nurses. What we don’t want is for people simply to feel that they go and see their GP as the first port of call. That would go against what Choose Well has been saying. We ask people to go to see a pharmacist first, in many GP practices to see the nurse available at the practice, and then see the GP. What I wouldn’t want to do is be in a position where people think that they can avoid seeing a nurse or a pharmacist and go to a GP with a condition that could easily have been dealt with elsewhere. Yes, of course, we want to see sufficient numbers of GPs in Wales, but we also have to make sure there are other alternatives to seeing a GP in order to help take the pressure off GPs.

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Further to the question from Gareth Bennett earlier on about President-elect Trump, will the First Minister acknowledge the vital importance to Wales of trade with the United States? Twenty-two per cent of our exports go to the United States. That amounts to nearly £3 billion a year. It’s the biggest single national destination for our exports, compared with Germany, for example, were we export about £1 billion—that’s a third in comparison. Therefore, whatever we may think about the individual who is about to become President of the United States, it’s vitally important for the Welsh Government to get on with the United States administration and to encourage them to invest in Wales and to trade with us as much as possible.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it’s right to say that the US is a major market for us. The EU is twice as big as a market and in the same way as he’s right that we have to make sure that we continue to attract investment from the US and export to the US, we also have to make absolutely sure that we’re able to access the European single market on the same terms as now. Why would we want to jeopardise our position in the biggest single market that we have?

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, nobody wants to do that, of course, and almost everybody in Britain at any rate wants to continue to trade with the EU on the same basis as we trade now, with tariff-free access. The danger with the EU is that the European Commission and protectionist forces inside the EU will want to put up trade barriers against us, which will be cutting off their nose to spite their face because they have a massive trade surplus with us. But as regards the United States, I want to return to this point because that was the point of my question, what is the Welsh Government going to do regardless of the domestic policies of President-elect Trump to encourage the United States Government to build upon the natural inclination to be friendly to Britain and to encourage trade between us? President Trump has business interests in the United Kingdom. He is, as we know from what he has said, prepared to put Britain at the front of the queue in negotiations for a free trade agreement. What is the Welsh Government going to do to encourage that process forward?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, he has said that he’ll put America first and any agreement with the UK will put America first and that’s what we must guard against in that respect. We will continue, as we have before, with our offices in the US, working with US companies and seeking to attract investment from the US. That will not change. Why would it change? I’m surprised when he said that nobody is advocating tariffs because I have heard people talking about tariffs. I heard David Davis talk about tariffs. I’ve heard Liam Fox talk about tariffs as if tariffs are unimportant. Why would we want to make it worse for us to access our biggest single market? That’s completely senseless. In the same way, regardless of the political situation in the US, we will continue to work with US companies, to attract investment from the US and promote Welsh produce in US markets. That won’t change.

Neil Hamilton AC: Will the First Minister acknowledge that perhaps UKIP can assist in this process? He will no doubt have seen the charming photograph that appeared very recently of the interim leader of UKIP with the President-elect of the United States, and whatever he and I may think about both those individuals, nevertheless, insofar as we do have personal contacts that can be used for the benefit of Wales, then they ought to be used. In the ‘Taking Wales Forward’ document, which was issued by the Government not so long ago, it says: ‘Ours will be an open government, receptive to new ideas and willing to work with others.’ Is the First Minister willing to work with UKIP in the interests of Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: The only thing that Nigel Farage has run is away. He’s never run anything. He is an individual who has no experience in terms of running anything or in terms of diplomacy. The idea of Nigel Farage being a diplomat is the equivalent of giving a child a chainsaw it would seem to me. Yes, I did see the photographs of Nigel Farage, but without his poppy, on Remembrance Day—a point I made yesterday—even though Arron Banks, the money man, did have a poppy on. It’s one thing for UKIP to say how important it is to remember—and they’re correct in that sense. It’s one thing for Nigel Farage to say that he wants to be at the Cenotaph and that is a point that he is able to make. But, he was not at a remembrance parade yesterday, he was not even wearing a poppy. If Mark Reckless had done that, he’d have been criticised. If Neil Hamilton had done that, he’d have been criticised. If any one of us in this Chamber had done that, then we would have been criticised, but the great Nigel is beyond criticism. Well, I’m afraid yesterday he was hoist by his own petard. Somebody who lacks the wit to be photographed on Remembrance Sunday at an event, grinning, without a poppy, does not deserve to be given any kind of diplomatic role.

<p>Improving Public Health</p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 3. How does the Welsh Government monitor the effectiveness of its strategies to improve public health in Wales? OAQ(5)0259(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We’re committed to using a range of evaluation mechanisms to ensure that our approach has a positive impact on people’s lives in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much, First Minister. The Welsh Government figure reveals that more than 60,000 people attended drug and alcohol treatment services between January and March this year, and only 13 per cent successfully completed the treatment. It means that 87 per cent of people never completed the treatment. What plans does the Welsh Government have to review the effectiveness of drug and alcohol treatment services in Wales, which are clearly failing to help the majority of those who need them here?

Carwyn Jones AC: We know that when it comes to drug rehabilitation, it is a long road for many, many people. For some, they don’t manage at the first opportunity to kick the habit. We know that for many it is a process that takes some time. If we look at our substance misuse strategy, the review of that concluded that the main elements of the strategy had been implemented. It did identify a number of areas where additional work would deliver greater benefits, and actions were built into the 2013-15 substance misuse delivery plan in order to take those recommendations forward.

David Rees AC: First Minister, your preventative agenda is important to ensure the good public health of people in Wales. Vaccinations are part of that preventative agenda, and particularly in this case, flu vaccinations. We have seen improvements in take-up, but there is still a challenge to NHS front-line staff. What’s the Welsh Government doing to ensure that NHS front-line staff increase the number who take up flu vaccinations to ensure that they can deliver?

Carwyn Jones AC: I know that GP surgeries in particular have been particularly proactive in ensuring that people are aware of flu vaccinations, and are aware particularly of flu vaccinations that are available without charge to vulnerable groups. And that has proven to be successful over the last few years, and I thank GP surgeries—and pharmacists, for that matter—for the work that they’ve done.

Dai Lloyd AC: First Minister, you will naturally be aware that smoking rates have declined over the years, partly of course because legislation has been put in place because the number that smoked was still stubbornly high until we had that ban on smoking in public buildings. In the same period, in the last decade, the rates of obesity have increased rather than fallen. Would you agree that legislative measures such as a sugar tax and a minimum price per unit of alcohol could also have a place in all of this obesity agenda? Would you agree that those two steps would strengthen any public health Bill in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, I would. As regards alcohol, we welcome the fact that the Scottish courts have granted the will of the Scottish Executive, and that’s something that we are now studying in Wales. But, of course, the problem at the present time is the UK Government’s plan to shift this matter from Cardiff to London, and therefore the National Assembly’s powers as regards drafting legislation on this would be curtailed. So, that’s not to be welcomed.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First Minister, the Public Health (Wales) Bill was introduced into the National Assembly on 7 November. If passed, the Bill will, amongst other things, create a national register of retailers of tobacco and nicotine products, create a licensing scheme for special procedures such as acupuncture, body piercing, electrolysis and tattooing, and it will require public bodies to carry out health impact assessments in specified circumstances, as well as requiring local authorities to prepare a local strategy for toilet facilities for public use. So, the Welsh Government is seeking to enact laws that have, at their heart, measures to systemically monitor activities on the ground. What advice would the First Minister offer Members such as the Member for South Wales East opposite, when they come to vote on the Public Health (Wales) Bill, if they wish the Welsh Government to monitor the effectiveness of strategies we pass in law in this place?

Carwyn Jones AC: I take it the Member refers to the Member who asked the question originally.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I do indeed.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it’s hugely important, of course, that Members understand that the public health Bill is part of an overall strategy to improve health and well-being; they’re not standalone measures. The intention is, of course, for us to present a Bill that is as comprehensive as it can be whilst remembering, of course, the difficulties that were experienced and the strongly held views of some Members in relation to bits of the previous Bill. And we know, of course, the history of that.

<p>The World Expo</p>

Adam Price AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on whether or not the Welsh Government will explore the potential benefit to Wales of a Welsh bid to host the world expo in 2027/28? OAQ(5)0264(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are currently reviewing the scope for attracting major international business events to Wales and, of course, any decision to bid for such an event would need to take detailed account of the costs and the return on that investment.

Adam Price AC: Of course, the UK Government has stated that they would support a British bid to stage the Expo for the first time in over 150 years. Manchester has already stated that they intend to submit an application for the main Expo in 2025, with a target of 28 million visitors. That’s almost three times the number that attended the Olympic Games. Considering the benefits, shouldn’t Wales also be submitting a bid?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, at present, we must first of all consider the cost for us, and, secondly, the location. Where would you locate the Expo? These are issues that we are currently considering. We know that the cost of the Expo is in excess of £1 billion, so it is a significantly expensive event, but we will consider what might be possible.

Russell George AC: First Minister, an Expo in Wales would have to build, of course, upon our business community’s success. We know that there’s a clear gap in young people’s business skills. The UK Government has announced that the apprenticeship levy is to be apportioned to devolved institutions. Will you commit to ring-fencing funding, so that Welsh businesses will be able to benefit from the apprenticeship levy?

Carwyn Jones AC: Of course, we wait to see what the figure—. Well, we have an idea what the figure will be and we wait to see how that figure will be distributed, bearing in mind, of course, that of the figure of about £130 million, £30 million has already been paid by the Welsh public sector. So, it’s money being returned, in effect, to the Welsh public sector, and we will look to use that money, as we have always done, to ensure that we can create as many effective apprenticeships as possible.

<p>NHS Treatment in North Wales</p>

Darren Millar AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on access to NHS treatment in north Wales? OAQ(5)0256(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. We expect the health board to continually improve access to services for the people of the north.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, like me, I’m sure you were very disappointed and horrified to read of the ombudsman’s case last week in terms of Mr Eifion Wyn Jones, who waited 132 days for prostate cancer treatment. This week, there’s been another case reported in the ‘Daily Post’ of a gentleman from Prestatyn, Mr Ian Taylor, who waited over three months for his treatment. I’m currently working on a case where a gentleman waited over six months for treatment to start. This is in spite of your Government having a very clear target that people should start their treatment, if they’re diagnosed with cancer, within 31 days. What action are you taking, given that the Welsh Government has put this organisation—the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board—into special measures, to make sure that your target is met for the people of north Wales, so that they can have access to the treatment they need?

Carwyn Jones AC: Betsi Cadwaladr, over the last 12 months, has been one of the best performing health boards against both cancer pathways, with performance against the 62-day pathway normally around 90 per cent and 98 per cent for the 31-day pathway. So, the experience of his constituents—I’ve no reason to doubt them—are not usual, but if he wishes to write to me with the details, I will, of course, investigate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I’ve spoken in this Chamber on a number of occasions about the importance of diagnostic tests. It’s been drawn to my attention by GPs in my constituency that waiting times for endoscopy tests have reached worrying levels over the past few months, with talk of patients having to wait a year and seven months having got to the top of the list. Would the First Minister give a commitment to look at what is happening in terms of endoscopy tests in north-west Wales, to ensure that patients do get appropriate and timely tests and care—tests that can, of course, save lives?

Carwyn Jones AC: Of course, I will look into that and I will write back to the Member with a response.

Michelle Brown AC: Since Flint hospital closed, step-down care from Glan Clwyd Hospital to Holywell for Flint patients isn’t working, and there are now excessive waiting times for hospital beds. Why are you reducing local bed availability when we have a shortage of beds, for example, by closing Flint hospital? And, by the way, there was a referendum in Flint that found that the majority of people in Flint wanted their hospital back, so when are we going to get our hospital back in Flint, please?

Carwyn Jones AC: I’m confident that the service the people of Flint will get when the new health centre is open will be far, far better than what the hospital was able to provide. We have seen this before in different parts of Wales, where people naturally feel concerned when a hospital is lost. But when they see what comes instead, and the facilities that are available, that tends to provide them with reassurance.

<p>Prison Violence and Suicide</p>

Joyce Watson AC: 6. What assessment has the First Minister made regarding the call for an independent inquiry into prison violence and suicide? OAQ(5)0260(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Prisons aren’t devolved, and any call for an independent inquiry is a matter for the UK Government, but there clearly are problems within the prison system that the UK Government needs to tackle.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that, and I’m sure you are aware, First Minister, that a prison safety and reform White Paper from the Department of Justice was released at the beginning of this month. We cannot divorce the Conservative Government budget cuts in recent years from the reduction in prison staff that has had disastrous consequences for both prisoners and the staff. The Westminster Government has now budgeted an additional £104 million to help recruit 2,500 new prison staff, and some prison reform, and I hope in a way that that will help. But my question is: what representation has the Welsh Government made to the Westminster Government in terms of our Barnett consequential and how that might help us here in Wales in picking up the pieces of their mess?

Carwyn Jones AC: They have the responsibility to pick up the pieces of their mess, primarily. The reduction by 25 per cent of front-line prison officers means that those that remain are overstretched, overwhelmed, and without support, and both prisoners and staff are being left in a vulnerable position. I was the local councillor when the Parc prison was built in my council ward, and the major problem the prison had was that it was understaffed, and the staff were undertrained. There were riots there on a regular basis, while staff from Swansea and Cardiff had to come in to assist the situation. One gentleman managed to escape by hanging on to the underneath of a lorry and he was never found. All those first years of the Parc prison’s operation were shambolic because of the fact that it was all being done on the cheap. Now, of course, it’s in a far better position, but it does show that, if the UK Government isn’t willing to invest in prison officers, then the result is chaos and vulnerable prisoners and vulnerable prison officers. They need to re-examine their plans.

Steffan Lewis AC: The prison system’s in crisis and thousands of prison officers are protesting at their dangerous working conditions. At what point will the First Minister deem it essential for Welsh prisons and the well-being of Welsh prisoners and prison staff to come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly?

Carwyn Jones AC: An interesting point, but it’s not quite as easy as that, because we don’t have a self-contained prison estate. For example, you’d still to need to buy in, as it were, prison places in England, at a price that England wanted to charge—we’d have no particular control over that. We lack certain high-security prisons as well, so all this has to be examined to make sure that we don’t end up with control over prisons, which in principle, actually, I’ve got no objection to, but end up with a financial deal that’s far, far worse. Unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, we’ve never had that self-contained prison system. It is something, of course, that we’ll have to consider when we look at the devolution of prisons.

<p>Awareness of Pancreatic Cancer</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to promote awareness of pancreatic cancer in Wales? OAQ(5)0262(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: The refreshed cancer delivery plan for Wales, launched today, continues to include a commitment to deliver a programme of awareness campaigns for cancer, including pancreatic cancer.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, First Minister. Today, I was very proud to once again host an event to mark pancreatic cancer awareness month here in the Senedd. Last year, when I asked you about this, I pressed you on the need to raise awareness. This year, Pancreatic Cancer UK have undertaken research that shows that three quarters of the public in the UK cannot name a single symptom of pancreatic cancer. Would you agree with me that we do now need a step change in this area and will you agree to look at what more we can do to ensure that the public knows what to look for, so that they do go to the doctor’s quickly and give themselves a better chance of survival against what is a very aggressive and difficult cancer to treat?

Carwyn Jones AC: Hugely difficult: I’ve seen it in more than one individual in my family, and, once it’s diagnosed, it’s hopeless. That’s the usual way with pancreatic cancer at the moment—a 4 per cent survival rate. The difficulty is, of course, that the symptoms are quite general and non-specific, and can be symptoms of any number of conditions. That said, the cancer delivery plan does include the commitment to regular national awareness campaigns. Given the fact that pancreatic cancer is, it seems to me, not hugely unusual as a form of cancer, and given its deadly nature, we do need to work with the medical profession in order to assist not just patients, but GPs as well, in terms of them being able to identify the cancer as quickly as possible, difficult though that is.

Angela Burns AC: First Minister, I’m sure you are aware that there’s been no progress in survival rates for pancreatic cancer during the last 40 years, despite the extraordinary leaps and bounds we’ve made in many other medicines and with many other conditions. Now, there’s currently a research project collating samples from six hospitals across England and Wales, including Swansea’s Singleton, and it’s being undertaken to form a bank of tissue that will help scientists to study genetic changes in the cancerous cells. The aim will be to help detect cases more quickly, because, as we’ve just discussed, once you’ve been detected, it’s usually a bit too late. First Minister, would you take a look at this project and see if there’s any assistance that your Government could provide to support this project, either through our research facilities or in terms of funding to try to move this agenda forward?

Carwyn Jones AC: I can say to the Member that we are currently funding research trials for pancreatic cancer through Health and Care Research Wales. That’s in collaboration with Cancer Research UK. Researchers in Wales are also part of the European study group for pancreatic cancer trials. That includes population-based studies of genetic predispositions to pancreatic cancer. So, yes, some work is already being funded by ourselves as a Government. She’s right to point out that survival rates have not budged in a long time, so, finding ways where early diagnosis can be improved will be absolutely crucial to increasing five-year survival rates in the future.

<p>Closing the Pay Gap between Women and Men</p>

Julie Morgan AC: 8. What plans does the First Minister have to close the pay gap between women and men in Wales? OAQ(5)0270(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: There is still a long way to go before we close the pay gap. It remains a priority. We do continue to tackle the underlying issues that create gender pay inequality, and those plans are to be found in our Welsh-specific equality duties and our strategic equality plan objectives.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank the First Minister for that response. Figures released from the Fawcett Society last week show that the full-time hourly gender pay gap in Wales is 7.1 per cent, which is actually lower than the UK average, but it is against a background of lower wages in Wales. On a UK-wide basis, the gender pay gap means that women are effectively working for free from 10 November, when you compare their wages with men’s, until the end of the year. So, what further could we do to try to tackle this glaring inequality?

Carwyn Jones AC: We are proud supporters of Chwarae Teg, who, of course, work tirelessly to challenge gender stereotypes, occupational segregation, and to promote modern workplace practices through, for example, the Agile Nation 2 programme and campaigns such as Not Just for Boys, but we are also continuing to challenge gender stereotypes. We held Girls Make a Difference conferences in 2014 and 2015, encouraging girls to aspire and to achieve in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: What action or engagement is the Welsh Government taking following the new Equality and Human Rights Commission report estimating the financial cost of pregnancy and maternity-related discrimination and disadvantage, which found that UK businesses are losing nearly £280 million each year as a result of women being forced out of their jobs by pregnancy and maternity discrimination in work?

Carwyn Jones AC: It’s a matter for the UK Government to deal with, given the fact that we’re talking here about employment rights, but, nevertheless, any loss of talent to any business is something to be regretted. That means, of course, ensuring that, where there is any discrimination on the basis of maternity leave, that is challenged and dealt with by the employment tribunals.

<p>The European Week for Waste Reduction</p>

Jenny Rathbone AC: 9. What preparations has the Welsh Government made for the European week for waste reduction? OAQ(5)0268(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We take the view that every week is a week for waste reduction. We are the only country in the UK to set waste reduction targets, and, since 2006-07, we have reduced our household waste by 14 per cent.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think Wales has an excellent story to tell, and our very modest levy on plastic bags has had an unbelievable impact in terms of 70 per cent reduction of plastic bag use. The focus of the European week is on reducing the amount of wasteful packaging, and we know from Plastics Europe, which is a trade association for plastics manufacturers, that about two thirds of the plastic used each year in the UK is on packaging. Now, the German Government introduced legislation on this in 1996, which compelled manufacturing companies to redesign wasteful packaging out of their processes to avoid waste, and Germany is now the top European nation for recycling: 70 per cent of the waste generated is successfully recovered and reused each year. What do you think Wales could do to follow the example of Germany, as we know that people in our community rail against the fact that there is so much unnecessary plastic wrapped up in whatever they purchase?

Carwyn Jones AC: The difficulty with it, of course, is that much of what we buy comes from outside even the EU. With China particularly, the packaging is substantial because of the distance that goods will travel. So, there is a difficulty for me in saying, ‘Right, we're going to have a closed cycle in Wales’, because Wales is so small. I think there is scope for doing it at a UK level and an EU level to encourage there to be fewer—for there to be less possible waste at the beginning of the process to not have to deal with the arisings at the end. But, for me, this is something that should be dealt with at a much bigger level, an international level, a global level, to make sure that we reduce the amount of potential waste in the first place.

Simon Thomas AC: There is one thing that we can do in Wales, First Minister, on the basis of the plastic bags levy, and that is a deposit-return scheme so that the plastic bottles that are used today in Wales are re-used and returned, and that deposit is repaid, rather than them ending up on our beaches.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, as regards the plastic bottles, of course, it is possible to recycle plastic bottles. I know that local authorities collect those bottles separate—some of them, anyway—to ordinary waste. So, it was very important for us to ensure that plastic bags are dealt with in this way, because of the fact that they are not recycled and also not biodegradable. But, of course, ultimately, we will have to consider alternative ways of recycling more.

<p>Access to the Planned Special and Critical Care Centre</p>

Hefin David AC: 10. Will the First Minister make a statement on access for patients from Caerphilly to the planned Special and Critical Care Centre? OAQ(5)0261(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. We’ll continue to work with the health board to address the transport requirements of patients and others who require access to the SCCC, and that will, of course, mean working to ensure that his constituents have the best transport access possible.

Hefin David AC: He’s anticipated my supplementary. I very much welcome the long-awaited special critical care centre. One of the biggest—[Interruption.] No, I didn't. One of the biggest concerns for my constituents, though, is transport links, as you say, to the super-hospital. We need a modern, integrated public transport system for the twenty-first century. Therefore, would he agree to work with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure the new super-hospital is adequately served by the south Wales metro, preferably with a specific stop there? And would the First Minister also accept that a number of my constituents, particularly in the south of Caerphilly and the Caerphilly basin, will need to continue, and should be allowed to continue, to use the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff, in the Heath, even though it lies outwith the Aneurin Bevan university health board?

Carwyn Jones AC: It's fairly common for people to use a hospital that isn't technically within the health board area that they reside in. For example, people in Ogmore by Sea or Ewenny naturally use the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend, even though they're not within the local health board area, and that will continue in the future. He's absolutely right to point out that there are opportunities with the metro to make sure that people are able to travel more easily, and he makes an important and interesting point about having a stop at the SCCC.In terms of transport generally, I know that the Cabinet Secretaries who are responsible for transport and health will work together to make sure that the SCCC has those transport links, and I know that the ambulance services trust has also been very closely involved in the local development of plans for the SCCC.

<p>Trade and Transport Connections Post Brexit</p>

David Melding AC: 11. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the government of the Republic of Ireland on trade and transport connections post Brexit? OAQ(5)0255(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I called an extraordinary summit of the British-Irish Council in Cardiff in the summer, where the economy and trade and the common travel area were key points of discussion, and EU exit implications will figure prominently, I'm sure, in future British-Irish Council meetings.

David Melding AC: First Minister, two of the most important trade routes with Ireland run through Wales, north and south, and they've received substantial funding over the years from European programmes, and, as we're seeing the UK Government talk about infrastructure investment as being key now, post Brexit, can you assure us that you are discussing these matters with them and the Republic of Ireland, because maintaining the quality of our ports and the roads and rail that serve them is crucial?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, there are issues for us. The issue of the border in Ireland has been raised, not least by me. The UK Government has conceded that the UK will not control its borders, because it has said that it does not want to see a closed border between Northern Ireland and the republic. I’ve no quibble or disagreement with that decision, but it does mean, of course, that the UK will have an open border with the EU. If you can get into the Republic of Ireland, you can get into the UK. There’ll be nothing to stop you. That goes against, of course, what some said in the EU referendum. What are the implications for Wales? Well, at one time there were customs controls at the three Welsh ports that have Irish ferries—I remember them well—but they were random customs checks. Not everybody was checked. But there have never been passport controls at those ferry terminals, so if there was to be a closed border between the UK and the EU via Ireland, that would mean, of course, passport controls at the ferry ports, which they’re not equipped for, and delays. There would be congestion, particularly going into those ports. So, nobody wants to see the introduction of a border between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, but nobody has yet worked out how to avoid it.

I thank the First Minister.

2. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item on our agenda is the business statement and announcement, and I call on Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Llywydd, I’ve clarified the title of the education Secretary’s statement on the national strategy for small and rural schools this afternoon, and I’ve added an oral statement on employability to today’s agenda. Business for the next three weeks is as set out on the business statement and announcement found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Neil McEvoy AC: There are two statements I’ll be asking for. Firstly, I attended two public meetings in Butetown on Friday and there’s a lot of anger in the community because, a stone’s throw away from this Assembly, people are injecting, there are hundreds of discarded needles lying around, in some cases children playing with them, and there are class A drugs being dealt openly. So, can the Government make a statement of support, ideally? As part of the solution, really, will you support indoor, medically supervised, safe injection zones so that we can take these most unfortunate people away from the street environment, so they can inject safely, and reduce the number of needles on the streets as well?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that question. In fact, this was raised a few weeks ago at a business statement looking at the experience in Glasgow of setting up such a unit. I did assure Members then that we would look at the results of that and take into account the experiences that neighbourhoods and communities, and indeed vulnerable children and young people, experience in terms of that situation.

Paul Davies.

Neil McEvoy rose—

Sorry, you’ve had your statement. [Interruption.] Nice try. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Leader of the house, I’d be grateful if you could please ask the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to bring forward a statement regarding the planned closure of Lloyds Bank branches throughout Wales. Llywydd, I should declare an interest as a former employee of the Lloyds Banking Group. Now, I know that I’m not the first Assembly Member to raise bank closures in the Chamber, and I suspect I won’t be the last, but this recent announcement for Pembrokeshire is wholly disproportionate to the number of nationwide closures that Lloyds Bank are proposing, given that three of the 49 planned branch closures happen to be in my constituency. Of course, these banks are a lifeline for many people living in and around those communities and their closure will have a devastating impact. Therefore, can you please encourage the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to bring forward a statement on this issue so that people living in the affected communities can understand exactly what the Welsh Government is doing to mitigate against negative effects of these closures on communities in my constituency, and indeed across Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Paul Davies does raise a very important issue, and indeed, as you have said, these closures, which are commercial decisions made by banks, do have a very negative impact on the communities that we serve. I understand that the three Lloyds Bank closures that you’re referring to in your constituency in Pembrokeshire are not due to take place until next spring, so I’m sure that you are engaging, as others will be, in opportunities to raise your concerns with the bank. Also, there will be opportunities to raise questions with Cabinet Secretaries on the issue. Of course, this is something, again, where we look at the impact not just in rural areas like Preseli Pembrokeshire, but also across Wales and in more urban communities, which are also now losing those vital services like the banks.

Mike Hedges AC: We’ve heard a lot about proposed transport changes in the Cardiff bay city region. I’m asking for a Government statement on transport proposals within the Swansea bay city region, specifically proposals such as reopening railway stations, further dualling of the A40, creating bus and train links and improving cycle path provision.

Jane Hutt AC: Mike Hedges raises an important point where we do need to look to the national transport finance plan in terms of measures to ensure that the Swansea bay region is connected, as you say, in terms of openings of railway stations where appropriate, ensuring that, mainly, we do have a reliable, modern and integrated transport network. Of course, this is something that I know the city region board is looking at, in terms of identifying priorities for growth and jobs, looking particularly at the region’s digital and transport infrastructure.

Simon Thomas AC: May I ask for two statements from Government, first of all on how the Government is deciding to use the apprenticeships levy? I understand that the Westminster Government has now announced how much funding will be distributed to the Welsh Government in the first and second years under the levy, but of course, as has just been mentioned by the First Minister, that includes funding paid by companies and public services in Wales towards the levy in the first place. But we do need to understand how the Government intends to use this levy, particularly, for example, for people such as North Wales Police, who have raised with me the fact that they as a public body are paying an apprenticeships levy, but traditionally the police do not use apprentices—they use other means of training new recruits. So, we do need to understand how the Government is to use that levy and respond to the concerns of people such as North Wales Police.The second statement I’d like from Government is whether or not the Government intends to respond at all to the recommendation of the coroner in a very unfortunate case in Pembrokeshire of the death of crew members on the Harvester fishing boat. Two men from Carew died at sea because of misadventure, and one of the factors that was identified in the inquest was the fact that they weren’t, as fishermen, wearing life jackets. The coroner had said that there was a ‘culture’, as he described it, of not wearing life jackets among fishermen. He is going to contact the Maritime and Coastguard Agency directly in order to make it mandatory that fishermen from British ports should wear life jackets. As fisheries, if not the health and safety issues surrounding it, are devolved, is it the Government’s intention also to make a statement on this issue and also to contact the coroner and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency in order to understand what could be done now in Wales in order to safeguard and enhance safety on our seas?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Simon Thomas. On your first question, in terms of the apprenticeship levy funding, you will know, and it has been reported back in questions that have been raised with the Minister for Skills and Science, about extensive discussions between the Welsh Government, devolved administrations and the UK Government since the apprenticeship levy was announced. I think we need to look carefully at these figures by the UK Government, because they don’t mean significant new money coming to Wales as a result of the apprenticeship levy. You raise a very valid point about who is paying this across the private and public sector, but let’s look at what this money means—it’s really mainly relating to funds that already form part of our spending review settlement and are included within the draft budget. So, we must be realistic, and those discussions I know will continue in terms of the impact on the public sector as well as on the private sector, in terms of employers and what it then means for them, in terms of the Barnett formula.Your second point is very important to us, because safety at sea is a key tenet of the Welsh Government’s fisheries management policy. You’ve referred to one tragic death already, and in 2016, we’ve suffered three tragic deaths of Welsh fishermen—completely unacceptable fatalities. So, we’ve prioritised access to funding though the current European maritime and fisheries fund, and this is also reflected in the Wales seafood strategy that Lesley Griffiths announced on 13 October, which I’m sure you’re aware of: a commitment to improve fishermen’s safety, minimise risks, working with them—with the fishing industry and other marine regulators. There are active discussions between Welsh Government, the fishing industry, the MCA and Seafish on fishermen’s safety, and I have to say that, again, this is looking at the significance of the European Union for us, because significant funding was directed to fishing industry safety equipment through the previous European fisheries fund.

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for two statements, the first in relation to the role of local authorities in supporting women with multiple needs. This follows a report of that name, entitled ‘Leading Change’, sent to me by the North Wales Women’s Centre last week. They say that, although it’s from an England perspective, it has much useful information applicable to our aims and joint working and commissioning here in Wales. It identifies—a very small reference—that half to two thirds of women prisoners have depression, almost half have attempted suicide, and it calls on local authorities to review their joint strategic needs assessments, joint health and well-being strategy and suicide prevention strategy to ensure the needs of women are met accordingly. It also called to ensure that women with multiple needs are involved as equal partners in developing new and improved responses, working with women to design and deliver services that meet their needs. Secondly, and finally, could I call for an oral statement on the very important matter of future support for former recipients of the independent living fund? The UK Government devolved responsibility to the Welsh Government for this from 30 June last year. Scotland appointed a full-time independent living fund business manager and embedded a project assistant within Inclusion Scotland, Disability Wales’s sister body, months beforehand; and Northern Ireland appointed ILF Scotland to administer the ILF for Northern Ireland. The cross-party group on disability, which I co-chaired in the last Assembly and which I’ve been asked to chair in this Assembly, had taken evidence on the implementation of the Welsh independent living grant from 1 July last year, and having identified widespread concerns, wrote to the then Minister, received a response, and he then issued a written statement on this in February, stating he had asked his officials to work with stakeholder representatives on options including a potential arrangement with the body set up in Scotland to provide payments for former ILF recipients to do the same for Welsh recipients. And at that stage, I can confirm that the membership of the Wales disability reference group favoured this approach. Despite this, we’ve now had, this month, a written statement only from the now Minister for Social Services and Public Health, stating she’s concluded future support to former ILF recipients will go through normal social care provision from local authorities, this being the most effective approach, and she recognises some recipients would have preferred a different decision. This failure, apparently, in this statement to co-produce, co-design, co-deliver and work with citizens and communities doesn’t meet the requirements of the social services and well-being Act, the well-being of future generations Act 2015 or the directives from the Wales Audit Office on the future direction of services. This affects too many of the lives of too many disabled people, so it merits an oral statement, or even a full debate, and I call for that accordingly.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, Mark Isherwood does raise an important point, representing his constituents in north Wales, particularly regarding the North Wales Women’s Centre and its expertise. I, myself have met people when I had ministerial responsibility, to ensure that their voices, their experience and the needs of women who they represent and support are heard and influence not only Welsh Government policy, but local and regional policy as well, particularly those most vulnerable. You raise important issues, where they can assist us in terms of not only responding, but also devising appropriate policy. I’m grateful that you’ve raised that on behalf of women in north Wales. But, on your second point, I do find it extraordinary—. I mean, so often, Mark Isherwood, you start to talk and often raise pertinent questions about something—the independent living fund, which your Conservative Government got rid of—for some of the most vulnerable disabled people in Wales. We’ve rescued it over the years. We rescued it by allocating precious resources, to make sure that we could continue with the independent living fund. And also, that has been welcomed by those groups that actually represent disabled people in Wales, and working in partnership with local government as well, and making sure that we’ve got allocations for social services in our draft budget for next year. Year on year, as a Welsh Labour Government, we’re seeking to protect disabled people in very much the ways in which we can respond to some of the points that were made earlier on this afternoon, about how disabled people are affected by welfare reform cuts and changes by your UK Tory Government.So, yes, a written statement has been delivered. Of course, clarifications and updates on that will be forthcoming.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on the work programme of the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group? While I very much welcome the introduction of the new treatment fund, and the review of the individual patient funding requests system in Wales, which, in my view, is long overdue, I am concerned that access to new drugs will continue to be constrained by the timescales set out by the AWMSG. I’m currently trying to help a constituent access Avastin, for cervical cancer. It is available on the NHS in England, and in Scotland, for advanced cervical cancer, which is putting my constituents at a disadvantage, because the AWMSG are only just beginning to evaluate it here.

Jane Hutt AC: Lynne Neagle raises a very important point, an opportunity for me to update on the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group consideration. They’re finalising, I understand, the scope and timelines for appraising Avastin. And, of course, this is a situation where we know that there is opportunity to make applications through the individual patient funding requests process, on patients’ behalf. But I think the overall appraisal, of course, is what is sought, and that will be very shortly forthcoming.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for two statements, please—one from the Minister responsible for lifelong learning and the Welsh language, on support for people with learning disabilities who are accessing further education? He’ll be aware of the concerns that were raised this week in the media regarding the system of support that is available to learners in post-16 further education with learning disabilities. Of course, there are statements available, which can be agreed with local authorities, in respect of people who attend schools, but the same system does not apply to those in further education. Rather, Careers Wales is given the opportunity to determine whether a system of support should be available. And there is no right to appeal against that system if those learners don’t get the support that they need.I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify whether he’s prepared to look at this situation, to see whether there might be an opportunity to address the inequity that there is currently in that system, and, hopefully, also to ensure that Careers Wales can extend the offer of support, from beyond the current two-year cap to three years, or more, where necessary, because, of course, some of the individuals involved may need to be in post-16 education and further education colleges for a longer period of time than regular learners, because of their disabilities.Can I also support the calls from Simon Thomas for a statement from the Minister for Skills and Science on the apprenticeship levy? There is clearly a lot of confusion out there amongst employers, and, indeed, training providers, especially with regard to individuals who might be employed by Welsh businesses but actually live over the border, and whether they may or may not be entitled to support, under the levy. I was very surprised to hear you say that there’s not a lot of money coming to Wales as a result of the levy. The reality is that, over the next three years, there’s going to be £400 million. So, I suggest that you speak to your finance Minister, and determine exactly how that money is going to be spent. I want to see that money spent on supporting apprenticeships across Wales. That clearly isn’t—we don’t get the impression that that’s the intention of the Government at the moment. We need some clarity on this—training providers, employers and employees do, too.

Jane Hutt AC: I think the point you make about adults particularly with learning difficulties is important. We’re committed, and this is an opportunity to restate—as a Welsh Government, we’re committed to ensuring everyone in Wales has an opportunity to access our education system. Of course, where specialist provision is identified, Ministers do consider applications and make every effort to respond in a timely fashion. We always try to fund provision that runs over a comparable time to provision in mainstream FE sector, and we continue to consider applications for longer provision, depending on individual need. But I think we also need to look to our additional learning needs transformation programme, and those plans for revised legislation, of course, to provide a smoother transition. The guidance is currently being revised to make it more clear what Welsh Government can fund through those routes. So, that’s a very important point to come back on. On your second point, I think the Minister will want to clarify certainly what this actually will mean for employers in terms of the apprenticeship levy. I’ve said that the figures provided by the UK Government don’t mean significant new money is coming to Wales as a result of the apprenticeship levy. So, I think we need to straighten that out and make it clear what that actually means, because, you know, you’ve got to recognise that this will form part of our settlement, and so it’s going to be a question of, again, the allocation that we get through our block grant. It’s not going to be what you’re making it out to be, I don’t believe, today.

I thank the Minister.

3. 3. Statement: National Strategy for Small and Rural Schools

The next item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the national strategy for small and rural schools. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make her statement—Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. This Welsh Government, as set out in ‘Taking Wales Forward’, is committed to successful, sustainable rural communities. I am clear that there can be real benefits—academic, cultural and social—to pupils and communities through the delivery of high-quality education in small and rural schools. As I set out in my statement to the Assembly in July, strengthening and extending school-to-school relationships, and prioritising education leadership, are critical to raising standards and tackling the attainment gap. A specific national strategy for small and rural schools recognises that schools and communities in different parts of Wales face different challenges as we move forward with our reforms. I know, and parents across rural communities know, that small and rural schools play an important role in raising standards and extending opportunities for all. Indeed, they are often critical in engaging pupils and families from the most disadvantaged backgrounds and raising pupil aspirations. As Members will be aware, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development was here last week testing our reforms. It is worth noting that Finland, a system that consistently performs well in OECD studies, has a significant proportion of small and rural schools, and actively supports their position and role within the education system.I am committed to education reforms as our national mission. All our young people deserve an equal opportunity, regardless of background, to reach the highest possible standards. And I am ambitious for small and rural schools, as I am for all schools in Wales. In recognising the challenges and priorities for education in rural and smaller settings, we will take the following actions: I will shortly consult on amendments to the school organisation code, in respect of a presumption against the closure of rural schools. Let me be clear, Presiding Officer, this does not mean that rural schools will never close. However, it does ensure that a local authority’s case for closure must be strong, and that local authorities conscientiously consider all viable alternatives to closure, including federation. I propose to develop the first-ever list and designation of rural schools. When considering closing a school, local authorities will be required to establish whether the proposed closure involves such a school. And I will be making funding available to encourage and support the development of federations across all maintained schools in Wales, along with better information and guidance for those considering collaboration and federation. Our wider plans to develop school leaders will include proposals to build the capacity of experienced, successful leaders of rural schools to deliver effective leadership across groups of rural schools.I propose to establish a rural and small schools grant of £2.5 million per year from April 2017, to be administered by the regional education consortia, in collaboration with their local education authority partners, which will be used to support greater school-to-school working, including informal association and collaboration; to encourage innovative use, for example, of how to use new technologies to combat the issue of professional isolationism by harnessing the power of information technology; to provide administrative support in schools where headteachers have a significant timetabled teaching commitment; and to increase the community use of school buildings.Presiding Officer, this is not a strategy to stand still. It is a recognition of the importance of education in our rural communities, as it is across the country, but also to ensure delivery of innovative and ambitious education for pupils in those communities.To conclude, just nine months ago, sitting over there, I was grateful for the opportunity to present a short debate to the Assembly on the importance of rural schools. Now, as Cabinet Secretary, I’m able to recognise and promote the essential role of small and rural schools in our national mission to reduce the attainment gap and to raise standards for all our young people.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement this afternoon? I think it’s about time that we tackled some of the problems that have cast a dark shadow over some small and rural schools over a number of years. As someone who lives in a rural community, as someone who’s a parent of children who attend a small rural school, and someone who’s a governor of that very same school, I particularly welcome the statement, and also, of course, I do declare that I have an interest in that regard.You mentioned, of course, the creation of a national strategy for small and rural schools, but you don’t give us many details as to how, perhaps, you’re going to go about doing that. So, perhaps you could tell us something about the process that you have in mind in that regard, and when you expect that strategy to be in place.I warmly welcome the change in the presumption against the closure of schools in the school organisation code, and that’s certainly something that already exists in England. Of course, the main factor within the current code, if my memory serves me correctly, in considering closure is to protect educational outcomes, and I don’t think anyone would suggest that that should be changed. I know that placing a focus on the quality of education is what’s needed, rather than, perhaps, the more physical aspects, such as surplus school places and so on. You’ve mentioned the need to take into account a broader range of options rather than closure. Perhaps you could tell us a little about how we can broaden the menu of options available, because, as far as I can see, there are federation and clustering, and perhaps some element of more meaningful collaboration. But, more than that, what ideas do you have for schools to consider?As I referred to surplus places, and as you make no reference to surplus places in your statement, which has, of course, been a strong focus for your predecessors at least in terms of the emphasis on the reorganisation of schools in rural areas, may I ask you, perhaps, to tell us whether you feel there’s been too much emphasis on that in the past? Are you going to reduce the emphasis on that? Certainly, it’s been a focus, of course, for the twenty-first century schools programme—one of the main objectives of band A, if memory serves me correctly. Therefore, will there be less emphasis on surplus school places in future, when it comes to looking at twenty-first century schools, as well as the wider issues in terms of school reorganisation?For me, of course, a school doesn’t exist within a vacuum, and we also need to look and take account of the relationship between rural education and protecting, supporting and developing rural communities more broadly. Could I ask you, therefore, what discussions you’ve had with other Cabinet Secretaries on the need to tackle the wider problems, because closing a small school is very often a symptom of the fact that the local economy isn’t maintaining young families and people have to leave and there is depopulation as a result of that. So, trying to resolve one problem without a more meaningful effort to tackle the other can only be part of the solution.I know that, in Scotland for example, following the commission they established a few years ago to look at rural schools there, they have set a clear focus on introducing family centres in rural schools as well as early years services in those rural schools. Of course, there is a clear link to that with some of the things that we’re hearing from the Cabinet Secretary on communities and childcare and these children’s zones that have been mentioned as a possible opportunity. I would like to hear what opportunities you believe there may be in terms of rural provision in that regard.Also, there is a need to encourage other sectors to play their part and to collaborate in order to support rural education. And I’m not just talking about the voluntary sector, but certainly further and higher education, especially perhaps in terms of secondary education in rural areas. I would like to know how you think there could be a possible contribution from that direction in supporting some of the things that we want to see developing.Again in Scotland, there is additional funding provided to the highlands and islands university in order to encourage them to work more closely with rural schools. You refer to the creation of a £2.5 million fund, and, whilst I welcome that and do recognise the financial pressures on the Government, in the context of some of the other proposals and plans, it isn’t such a huge amount. Certainly, looking at the scale of the challenge and the need for additional support in the rural context, one would always want to see more funding. But, I will ask you perhaps whether that is the starting point, because one would assume that we would need a broader effort. One thinks about ICT, and you refer to it as one of the issues—of harnessing the power of IT with that funding. I attended a meeting last week where a teacher at a school told me that, if there are more than two pupils online at the same time, then the whole thing comes to a grinding halt. So, there are infrastructure problems. I know that the Government is aware of that, but one could perhaps feel that we are not making the progress that we should be making in that regard.Attracting teachers to work in rural areas is also a challenge. If you’re a deputy head in a large school, then what’s the incentive for you to become a headteacher in a smaller school? You have to ask that question, because the financial incentive in terms of salary isn’t such a great one when compared with the additional burden and responsibilities that would come with that headship. So, how will the strategy that you mention assist in tackling the pressures in terms of staffing resources in that regard?Finally, we can’t look at the situation of rural schools without also considering the issue of school transport in a rural context, because the provision as it has existed has been reducing. What we’re seeing, of course, is a number of parents taking their children with them to the towns or the centres where they work for their education because the transport provision that may have been there in the past is no longer there because of various cuts imposed. So, has any consideration been given to that? If not, what consideration will be given to strengthening the school transport provision because, without that, it makes it extremely difficult to ensure that people can take advantage of that service?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Llyr, for, I think, what was a welcome of the policy statement this afternoon. To begin with the issue of the formation of the policy, I had hoped that, via my statement, I would give you a strong direction of travel. We will be formally publishing a full strategy that will guide us in ensuring that our investment of the £2.5 million is informed by that. With regard to the schools organisation code, I will be going out to consultation on the issue of a presumption against closure. You’re quite right: such a presumption does exist in England; it also exists in Scotland. It hasn’t existed in Wales to date. But there are other aspects of the code that people may wish to comment on and this is an opportunity, given that it’s three years now since the code was introduced and we’ve had three years of experience of dealing with that code. I know, from meeting with the WLGA just last week, that they have some issues themselves with how they think the code could be improved. So, this is one particular aspect, but there will be an opportunity for wider discussion about the code. I think it will change the nature of the discussion, or the place where local authorities start from, and I think that’s what’s really important in bringing that presumption in. As I said in my statement, that does not mean there can never be any change. Sometimes, for very good, strong educational reasons, we need change, but at least we’ll be starting from that particular point, and local authorities will have to demonstrate that they have properly considered alternatives to maintain education in those areas.With regard to surplus places, you’ll be aware that the agreement between me and the First Minister—the progressive agreement that brought me into Government—makes specific reference to the issue of surplus places. This in an issue in rural areas, but I must say that this is not only an issue for rural areas. If one looks at some experience in other parts, local authorities have been very quick to take surplus places out of the system, only to find themselves then with demographic changes within their particular area meaning that, for some people, it’s very difficult to get into the school that is their local school. So, actually, we need to look at surplus places in the round to make sure that we’re looking over a wider period of time, so we can better anticipate the peaks and flows that there inevitably will be in potential admissions into schools.You’re quite right—education on its own cannot solve some of the significant demographic problems that rural communities face. I’m working very closely with my Cabinet colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, around the issue of children zones, as well as the childcare offer. In some parts of rural Wales, Llŷr, you’ll be aware, as I am, that the opportunities for childcare are very, very limited indeed. The market simply isn’t there, so therefore working in conjunction with the schools would be a perfect opportunity to address some of those. And of course, the selection of Gwynedd and Anglesey as one of the pilot areas gives us that opportunity to test this significant childcare offer in a rural area. We didn’t want the pilots all to be done in an urban setting; we wanted to be able to test these proposals in a more rural area, and that’s why I’m very glad to see Gwynedd and Anglesey as part of the pilot, to see what we can do to work in those areas. But we need action, and work for people—high-quality paid jobs in rural communities. And crucially for me, we need access to affordable housing, which is one of the biggest barriers to young parents and families living in their communities—the sheer unaffordability of housing and accommodation in the areas where they grew up. We really need to make progress there, and that’s why this Government is committed to building significant numbers of extra affordable homes.Llŷr, I agree that we can always do with more money, couldn’t we? But this is a start, to be able to look to see how we can use this money. I will be looking for evidence of real change though. This is not business as usual. This is not just additional money to support the status quo. This is additional money to drive forward real change in how we look at different models. And those models could be hard federations and collaborations, or soft federations and collaborations. We know we have some examples of primary schools working in clusters, but I’d like to see the development of the role of executive heads. You asked about recruitment and retention—why should somebody move on? Well, I think the prospect of being an executive head in a rural community is a very exciting prospect for an up-and-coming, go-getting, would-be school leader. So, those different kinds of arrangements are one of the ways in which we will attract people to be school leaders in rural areas. I’d like to see more people consider the idea of a federation between secondary and primary. Often, federations are only seen in the context of one particular age group. Why not look at federations across a particular community area—something that actually happens in the Isles of Scilly, for instance, as an example there?With regard to transport, obviously this is a matter for my Cabinet colleague, the Minister for transport. The rules are quite clear: if a child lives a certain distance from their school, then they are entitled to transport to their nearest suitable school. There is ongoing work at the moment across departments to look at the issues around home-to-school transport in the round.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. I know of your commitment to rural schools. I know you used to fight passionately when you were an opposition member on behalf of schools in Powys that were threatened with closure by that particular local authority, and, of course, you were matched by many other Assembly Members representing rural constituencies in this Chamber. Like your constituency, my constituency has also seen a number of rural schools close in recent years, and there are some, unfortunately, which are still threatened with closure. So, I do very much welcome the fact that you have said that there will now be, in the future, a presumption against closure and that local authorities will be required to look at every alternative and leave no stone unturned when looking at the way their schools are organised. It’s all too often been the case in some parts of Wales that local authorities have stubbornly dug their heels in as a result of the poor guidance, frankly, from the Welsh Government that has allowed them to do that, and, as a result, some very good schools have closed. So, there’s been a pretty rough ride for rural schools in recent years, and I’m very much hoping that that will change.Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t some questions that I hope you will be able to answer today in respect of this additional resource that you are making available. I’ve seen the list of things that you hope to achieve with that resource. With every respect, £2.5 million is not a huge sum of money to be able to meet all of the aspirations on that particular list. I wonder whether you’ll be able to give us some clarity as to whether that is £2.5 million extra on top of your budget that is going to be available next year, or whether this is from within the education budget as a whole and it will mean that you are robbing Peter, effectively, to pay Paul, and also, just precisely what your definition of a rural or small school actually is. Because, obviously, that will determine very much where this money flows to. You’re giving it to the regional consortia rather than the local education authorities to distribute. If you can clarify precisely why that is the case, that would also be helpful.Whilst I accept that federation can be a very effective model, and, in fact, it’s something that is working in respect of a school that was threatened and is still threatened with closure in my own constituency—Ysgol Llanbedr—which is now working with another school, against the local authority’s wishes, in order to survive, and is making a jolly good show of it, with increasing pupil numbers. But, if you could just tell us exactly how this cash will support federations, given that federations actually generally result in saving significant sums of money—is it just to prime the pump, are these long-term arrangements, or is this a short-term fund with these one-off grants having a period in which they are available to schools and then that period eventually coming to an end? So, I do welcome the extra cash, I welcome the statement and I welcome the direction of travel, but I think a lot depends on these definitions as to precisely what a rural or small school is. I think a lot depends on how the money is going to be used and how thinly that jam is going to be spread across the many hundreds of rural schools that we have here in Wales. So, perhaps you can give us some clarity on those things.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Darren, for the welcome for the statement. To begin with, as I said to Llyr with regard to the presumption of closure, I hope that really does shift the basis from where we start these conversations—rather than closure being the first option on the list, and rather than the last option on the list. But I hope as well, via the consultation on the code, we can look at ways in which we can strengthen the consultation exercise. I’m sure you’ll be aware that many people find the current consultation exercise is not as strong as they would like it to be, and there is an opportunity to strengthen that with regard to all schools, actually, and how all schools are dealt with in the system.Let me be absolutely clear, and I explained this to your colleague Mohammad Asghar at the committee last week, who was very kindly—no, Andrew, actually, was substituting in his absence. Let’s be absolutely clear, the education MEG is up by 3.5 per cent. There is an additional £53 million going into my portfolio in this budget round, which has allowed me to prioritise and bring forward new initiatives. The £2.5 million allocation is to support a range of specific proposals coming forward from local authorities on how they will use that money to support educational provision in their particular area to drive up standards. Alongside that, rural schools will also have the opportunity to participate in funding that we have available for leadership and funding that we will have available for federations and closer school-to-school working in our self-improving schools system. I will want to make sure that all that money is spent at the front line, driving improvements and quality in our education for our rural children. I do not expect that money to be sat in county halls or in regional consortia offices. This is an opportunity to drive up and address the very specific challenges of standards in rural Wales: the challenge of being a headteacher with a high teaching workload, and how you manage that; what we can do to develop the role of business managers across a range of schools; the very real challenges of a stable workforce that doesn’t have the opportunity to get out and learn from other schools; the fact that, in a rural school, if you have a small workforce, how you can have the expertise to make sure that your curriculum planning and your resources are as wide-ranging as they could be. So, I’ve set out some ideas of how I expect the money to produce the change, but if schools and LEAs come forward to me with other radical ways that demonstrate how they would drive up attainment for our children, I’m willing to consider them. But, the crucial thing for me is that my expectation is that this money gets to the front line and makes a real difference for those children.With regard to a definition, we don’t have one, Darren. That is part of the problem, and we will be working on exactly how we can get a robust definition. At the moment, the Wales Audit Office has figures that I would regard, in the context of my own constituency, as large schools. So, we need to work closely to be able to agree on that definition.But, as I said, what’s really important is that people shouldn’t regard this as the status quo. This is a specific part of our overall commitment to driving up standards across Wales, and there are some particular challenges of how we achieve that in some of our more urban communities, and there are particular challenges of how we achieve that in rural communities, and this, I hope, will be part of the solution as part of our overall national mission.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. School closures, and even the threat of school closures, cause divisions within and between rural communities, especially when there is competition between pupils for school places. When the school is closed, there is a loss of a social and cultural resource and physical meeting place for members of the committee. The local school acts as an employer and consumer in the local area, and some studies note that parents feel less inclined to become involved in a new, larger school if their local school closes. Small, rural schools may have particular benefits for students, such as smaller classes and a community ethos.What happens to the schools that are closed? The local authority makes a profit by closing the school and selling off the land for development, and at the same time, a major cog in community life is removed. Additionally, parents’ views are ignored or largely not taken into account. A local newspaper near me quoted that parents had been left shell-shocked by the decision to close Ysgol Maes Edwin on Flint mountain. Even the local Labour MP for the area, David Hanson, didn’t want the school closed. Mr Hanson spoke particularly about how new housing developments in the area, like Croes Atti, a development of 100-plus houses within the catchment area of the school, mean that it would be wrong to close the school, as the people moving into those new houses will probably need some school places for their children. The local authority should listen to him, perhaps.I welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Education’s declared ambition for small and rural schools. However, I would have much preferred to have seen a full commitment from her, plus the appropriate use of resources being pledged, to support rural and small schools staying open and the reversal of recent decisions to close small schools in my region, for instance, the school on Flint mountain. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, can I thank Michelle Brown for her contribution? She makes a valuable point with regard to the importance of the physical building often in a community, and that’s why, as I announced in my statement, I will be looking to see what we can do to increase the community usage of school buildings as a way of maintaining part of the fabric of life in rural Wales. But, let’s be clear, schools are already doing this to great effect. Schools in my own constituency have stepped up to the plate and have taken over the running of sports facilities that would have been lost in the community. Schools are currently engaged, for instance, in taking on library facilities that would have been lost to the community, and I want to encourage the greater use of school buildings as a real asset for the people who live in that particular area.The Member also makes a valuable point with regard to the economy. This was the point that was made to me by the members, and the lead member, for Gwynedd Council when I met with them on Friday morning. They recognised that. That’s why they are looking to themselves, and to support from Welsh Government, to find innovative ways in which they can maintain education settings in a whole variety of communities, because they recognise that very point and their responsibility across the board.The consultation will begin shortly. I’m sure the Member will want to participate fully in that, but I must say it is not my intention at this stage to revisit any decisions that have previously been made.

Lynne Neagle AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement today? In particular, I very much welcome what you’ve said about making funding available to encourage and support the development of federations across all maintained schools, along with better information and guidance. I think that is very important. You’re aware of my concerns on this issue.I was also very interested in what you said about the consultation on the school organisation code being an opportunity for all concerned parties to feed in. As you know, it is not just rural schools that find the issue of school closures very difficult. All schools, in my experience, tend to be very much the heart of their community, and I know that you’re aware that I have some concerns about the school organisation code. I think it is definitely timely to review it, and would just like to ask how you see that process going forward, and in particular, how you will ensure that parents and communities get a say in the reforms that you’re looking at.

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, can I thank the Member for the questions? I hope I’m not divulging too much of a secret that, in the previous Assembly term, Lynne and I would send messages across the Chamber on this very subject of our frustrations with the school organisation code. I think it is timely, three years into its existence, to review its effectiveness. I particularly want to look at the issue of how we can amend it to look at the principle of presumption against closure, but I know that there are frustrations across the Chamber, from Assembly Members who represent all different types of communities, about whether it is as robust as it can be. I hope that we can avail ourselves of this opportunity to look at this in the round, because the Member is absolutely right: schools are important, whatever the nature of the community. I’m aware that in some Valleys communities the schools at the top end of the Valleys are probably equally as remote as some of the schools that I know and love very well. So, we need to look at this in a holistic way, and this is certainly not setting a different standard for one type of school as opposed to another. The Member is right about how we can engage with parents and communities. I will be using the full range of publicity machines that are available to the Welsh Government. I hope we’ve had a good start today in publicising this. I’m grateful the media have highlighted the statement this afternoon, but I will be relying on Assembly Members themselves, actually—I’d be very grateful to Assembly Members across the Chamber if they themselves would take part in the consultation and if they would make the consultation widely available to people whom they know have an interest in this particular issue. The more voices we can hear, the more opportunities we can have to have an organisation code that’s on point and really reflects the concerns of the people that we all represent.

Mark Isherwood AC: As you state, small and rural schools can provide real academic, cultural and social benefits. When I called on the previous Welsh Government to respond to concerns that Flintshire County Council was using old and inaccurate data and acting in breach of the school organisation code in respect of a number of proposed school closures there, including small and rural schools, Ysgol Llanfynydd County Primary School and Ysgol Maes Edwin in Flint mountain, referred to earlier, your predecessor said,‘I can’t comment…in terms of the school organisation code and the guidance, because, of course, this may come before Welsh Ministers.’Of course, in the context of small and rural schools, that hadn’t been the case since 2013. Now, although councillors must only consider material evidence relevant to the school organisation code and the accuracy of the data used by the council cabinet as the basis of their recommended decision to close schools, when these closures came to council, the highly political comments by the council leader were not material to the matters that the council must consider, and this political point scoring on both occasions raised serious concerns about the basis on which his cabinet took their decisions. You state you’re not going to revisit decisions previously made. Does that therefore mean that you’re bolting the stable door after the previous Welsh Government and current First Minister allowed the horses to bolt, or, in circumstances such as this, will you reconsider the evidence used to justify the closure to members and the public, in the context of what the school organisation code actually required?

Kirsty Williams AC: Mark, I thought I had made it quite clear in my answer to Michelle Brown that I’m not prepared to reopen cases that have been already discharged. Mark, I can only be responsible for the situation I find myself in now. This is not about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. This is a genuine opportunity to recognise the particular challenges of delivering education in a rural area and the barriers that may make it more difficult for that education to achieve absolute excellence, and I am determined to do that. I am sorry that you feel that this policy—. Unlike your education spokesperson, who sees that there is merit in what I am doing, I am sorry that you have not been able to share in that enthusiasm.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. Statement: Employability

The next item on our agenda is a statement by the Minister for Skills and Science on employability. I call on the Minister to make her statement. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Supporting people to enter, remain and progress within sustained employment is a vital part of ensuring a prosperous and secure future for Wales. ‘Taking Wales Forward’ commits the Welsh Government to reshaping‘employability support for job‑ready individuals, and those furthest from the labour market, to acquire the skills and experience to gain and maintain sustainable employment.’The Welsh Government is, therefore, developing an employability plan that I intend to publish in the new year, which will set out how we will create the conditions to deliver this commitment and how we will measure success.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Julie James AC: I outlined in July the Welsh Government’s early thinking on the development of a single all-age employability programme, bringing together the activities from our current employability programmes to better meet the needs of those requiring support to enter, remain and progress in the workplace. As I said then, this programme will enable us to better respond to the labour market challenges we now face: the continued challenge of sustaining a low unemployment rate, particularly given the need to address disproportionate levels of unemployment for certain groups and geographical areas, whilst recognising the clear case for sharpening our focus on reducing economic inactivity.However, we know that it is not enough to focus only on getting people into work. There is a need to ensure that individuals gain decent and sustainable employment and that they progress into, and within, secure jobs. Although entering into employment is a key factor in reducing poverty, it is also important to recognise the growing issue of in-work poverty in Wales. There are now more households living in poverty where someone is working, than not.Our employability plan will, therefore, set out how our support can be most effectively targeted to progress more individuals from economic inactivity into work, whilst retaining an emphasis on progression in and through sustained employment. The plan will recognise that getting people into sustained and meaningful employment is not just about increasing skills. A holistic approach is required that seeks to identify and address the needs and barriers each individual faces in gaining, retaining and progressing within employment.We believe in an integrated employability approach, linking skills initiatives with employment services and with other public services tackling employability-related barriers, in particular the integration of work and health services to support people with health conditions at the earliest possible opportunity to access or remain in work. We also recognise the importance of working with employers to fully integrate Welsh Government business support and procurement levers within our wider employability approach in order to ensure that we maximise the potential to target recruitment to new jobs created from low activity groups.In order to more effectively prioritise and target our employability and skills interventions, we will develop a systematic approach to identifying need and to referral to employability support through a new employment advice service. The employment advice service will strengthen and unify assessment, brokerage, referral and advice services, and will operate entirely independently from the provision of employability support in order to ensure a clear, impartial and absolute focus on the needs of the individual. Ongoing advice and brokerage will be provided through the employment advice service to ensure that individuals are effectively supported in their journey into and within employment.The employability plan will set out a framework for action drawing on evidence of what works. We will be working across Government and with partners over the coming weeks to develop this framework, building on the key themes from our engagement to date that have set the basis for our overarching approach. This approach will be all-age and all-encompassing. We will move away from a cohort-driven approach, targeting specific groups of unemployed or economically inactive people with specific interventions, and instead focus support around the needs of the individual. Evidence tells us that bespoke and intensive support that is tailored to the needs of individuals in order to increase employability and address barriers is critical. We’ll also remove the boundaries between in-work and out-of-work provision to create a continuum of support to individuals once they access the workplace, particularly for those vulnerable to dropping out of employment. Our approach will be integrated and incentivised. We will consolidate the number of programmes on offer by bringing interventions together through our all-age and all-encompassing approach and, working through our business support and procurement levers, we will incentivise the creation of more targeted job opportunities for disadvantaged individuals and place premiums on support in particularly disadvantaged areas. Our approach will also be modernised and efficient. We will reach more individuals through the introduction and expansion of digital employability services and we will free up resources through more efficient and innovative delivery models, such as the nationally commissioned, regionally managed and locally delivered approach we will be adopting for the new all-age employability programme.This approach will require a co-ordinated and focused effort, not only across the Welsh Government but also with UK Government departments, in particular the Department for Work and Pensions, with local authorities, the third sector, the private sector, and with stakeholder groups and delivery partners. This effort will need to embrace flexibility and innovation whilst retaining a relentless focus on improvement and results. Our work with the DWP as a key partner in Wales will continue in order to make every effort to embed their programmes within the wider Welsh employability agenda. The principles of our employability plan underpin the new all-age employability programme and our co-design of the DWP work and health programme in Wales. This represents an opportunity to more effectively align the breadth of employment support on offer to individuals across Wales. In developing the plan, it is imperative that the Welsh Government works closely with all key players to ensure opportunities are available for all. Our new approach to employability support will be flexible, nationally commissioned, regionally managed, locally delivered and, most importantly, centred around the individual. We believe that this approach will benefit individuals across Wales in gaining, retaining and progressing within work, and will deliver the prosperous and secure future for Wales that we need to take Wales forward. Diolch.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I thank you for your statement this afternoon, Minister? I welcome the announcement that there is to be an employability programme and the general principle of creating a more accessible, more flexible programme, with the support of the employment advice service in this case, of course, but the statement raises a number of questions because, essentially, it announces that there is to be an employability programme and an employment advice service. Perhaps you can mention who will develop the employability programme. I assume it would be the Government, but it would be good to know, because, if you are going to make a statement or an announcement by January, there isn’t a great deal of time to include various stakeholders in that discussion. When do you anticipate that the programme will become active? Perhaps you could tell us a little about the resources and the costs of implementation. And also, the employment advice service that you mentioned, what sort of capacity will that have? How many people do you anticipate they will be working with on an annual basis? Perhaps you could tell us a little about the cost that you anticipate and from what budget the funding for that will come from.You mentioned that you want to commission nationally, manage regionally, and deliver locally. Now, I assume—I may be wrong—that you anticipate that the regional skills partnerships will have a role to play. So, what consideration have you given, in considering that model, to perhaps devolving more responsibility to those partnerships, certainly in terms of budgets and so on in relation to this area? I’d be pleased to hear to what extent there is more scope perhaps to do that.You also mentioned, of course, all-age provision. I assume that we are talking about post-16. Perhaps you could tell us whether you have considered extending that to post-14, because you will be as aware as I am that many people have reached the point where they have made decisions by the time that they reach that age. Perhaps we are catching them too late, or failing to catch them at all perhaps, because it’s too late before they face that kind of situation. The statement does mention that the approach would be all-age and all-encompassing and that you are looking at an approach that is integrated and incentivised.You mentioned being modernised and efficient, but I don’t see an emphasis on ensuring that the service is effective. I do think that that is an important consideration, and perhaps you could tell us more about how you intent to evaluate the effectiveness of the provision. How will you measure success under these new arrangements that you have set out this afternoon? Much of the success of what you hope to achieve, from what I see from the statement, will depend to some extent on the UK Government and perhaps the record in the past period doesn’t give one much confidence when we look at the way that the apprenticeship levy, for example, has been dealt with. Perhaps, as I am talking about that particular levy, you could tell us how you anticipate that that could strengthen or complement this provision that you have announced today. We heard earlier about the announcement made yesterday on the level of funding that will be allocated by the UK Government. I would suggest that we shouldn’t assume that that is new funding, because it’s been lost from elsewhere. We will lose out elsewhere. But it will be interesting to hear how you see the contribution of that levy playing out in this context.When we do talk of this area, one crucially important area is the element of marketing and promoting the value of the acquisition of skills for people who aren’t in employment, and even those who are in employment—perhaps more so. I would have thought that we would need a strong marketing campaign to back up programmes such as these. Perhaps you could tell us a little more—because the DWP and local authorities and the provision in terms of health and so on will be generating some demand, but perhaps more specifically for those people in employment—about how and where do we ensure that we sell this to employers, to young people, to parents and all those various groups out there that we want to see taking advantage of the provision. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you for those questions, Llyr. I’ll start with the apprenticeship levy, just to be clear. I do feel, deputy Llywydd, that I have made these remarks several times in this Chamber but I’ll just make them again. The figures that have been released by the Treasury do not mean that significant new money is coming to Wales, because they don’t take into account reductions made to comparable English programmes including apprenticeships and, therefore, need to be considered as part of the bigger picture, which shows—you’ll not be surprised to learn—real-terms cuts to the funding available to Wales over the next few years, nor do they show the effect of some £30 million-odd that will be paid back to the Treasury by Welsh public service providers through the levy. So, just to be clear: the levy is nothing more than a UK Government employment tax. It directly conflicts with areas of devolved competence. We have our own distinct and very popular approach to apprenticeships, which the Member knows about and has been very supportive with, and this just cuts directly across it. So, not only do we not have any new money but, clearly, all our public services have to pay the levy and so they’re deprived of funds. So, it makes no sense at all and we’re very cross about it. I don’t think I’m saying anything new: I’ve said that several times before. I’m mystified about how we can be any clearer. There is no new money. We are continuing the programme we had before. I think this has got to be at least the tenth time I’ve said that in public and to everybody else who’s asked me. So, I don’t understand how I can be any more clear, Llywydd. So, that’s the position we’ve found ourselves in. The autumn statement will, of course, clarify the position completely and, if things change, I will, of course, keep Members updated but we’re not expecting a change and this is the position as I understand it to be. So, that’s the apprenticeship levy point. In terms of all the rest of it, what I’m announcing today is the start of a policy programme to develop this programme and I’m really asking Members for their input into the framework of the programme. I’m not yet in a position to tell you how much it costs and all the rest of it because we haven’t got the policy completely put to bed. There has been a process of consultation. They are very welcome, all AMs who want to input into that personally on behalf of their constituents, and I will come back in the new year with a proper proposal for the overarching policy. But the fundamentals of it are that, at the point of contact, the individual should not have to wrestle with what kind of funding that they’re getting. So, rather than now having to say, ‘Well, you haven’t applied—you applied for Jobs Growth Wales but, unfortunately, you’re 25 and you should have applied for something else’, we’ll do away with that. What we’ll have is this employment advice service, which will broker the individual’s ability to say what they need and then help them to get what they need. I’ve been extremely clear that that has to be completely divorced from the actual support that they get, because I frankly—and I’ll be absolutely clear about this—do not want any links at all with the kind of assessment that has been associated with benefits sanctioning and so on, which I think is abhorrent and really only drives desperate people into more desperation. So, what we’re looking to do is broker for the individual a way for them to express their own needs to Government, and for us to provide them with the services they require. That might be skills and it might be training—employment training or in-employment training—but it also might be health provision or childcare or travel or whatever. So, I will be convening a cross-Government group to look at this, and we will be looking to see how we can seriously holistically look at the barriers that an individual faces towards sustained employment, or indeed towards the steps towards employment, which might include volunteering and community work and so on, to get them along that path, because we know that it drives people out of poverty and into health to have that kind of connection. So, this is really a very early update for the Assembly in terms of our policy direction, because I very much wanted to know what Members thought about that policy direction, and then I’ll revert to you once we’ve got the thing in a more comprehensive form.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I thank the Minister for her statement today. The Minister said she plans to reshape employability support for job-ready individuals to gain decent and sustainable employment. Vital to this is ensuring that students leaving education have the right skills to help them in the world of work. The Minister says that she recognises the importance of working with employers to maximise the potential of helping low-activity groups into employment. So, could I ask the Minister what plans she has to strengthen ties with the business community to make this happen in Wales? I welcome the confirmation that this approach will be for all ages and all-encompassing. How will the Minister ensure that her approach reduces the gender imbalance in our workforce, and what specific measures will she be taking to assist older people back into the workforce in Wales? The Minister says that employment is not just about increasing skills. Increasing skills does, however, play a key role in getting people into sustainable employment. I regret, therefore, that there has been a significant lack of commitment from the Welsh Labour Government to reinvest this funding into improved apprenticeship training. This is the money given by the businesses—[Interruption.] This is the money given by the businesses, and it is vital that this is reinvested into training. Does the Minister appreciate the disappointment of groups such as the Welsh retail consortium that the Welsh Government is viewing the levy consequentials as a revenue stream and are not linking this to those who have contributed to it? Why does the Welsh Government refuse to ring-fence this money to support businesses? The Welsh Government has made much of its Valleys taskforce. [Interruption.] The Welsh Government has made much of its Valleys taskforce. Could not these funds be used to provide skills training for people in the most deprived communities in our Valleys? The funding certainty provided by the UK Government is most welcome, and employers will feel let down by the Labour-led Government if it refuses to invest this cash into training and apprenticeships in Wales, although, overall, I do appreciate what the Minister is doing here.

Julie James AC: At the risk of appearing like groundhog day, there isn’t any extra money. The Member will be familiar with how the Barnett formula works. So, what the Treasury has done is announce a consequential of one part without showing you what the disconsequential of another part is. So, for example, there’s a 17 per cent cut in the base funding, which is matched against the apprenticeship funding. That’s just one of them; there are several others. So, you will know that a fundamental principle of devolution is that the money comes to the Welsh Government for the Welsh Government to set its priorities. The idea that you can change general taxation for a specific employment tax and then bemoan the fact that it isn’t being ring-fenced is just extremely—well, laughable, quite frankly. It’s not clear either how it will be spent in England. So, whilst it’s true that there will be a voucher system for some employers that pay the levy, it’s not at all clear to me how SMEs who don’t pay the levy will get funding, nor is it clear how public sector bodies paying the levy will be able to spend that funding. So, it’s nothing more than a cut in general taxation, replaced by a specific tax. And I’m afraid, Dirprwy Lywydd, I have no other words to express it. I feel I’ve really said it until it’s been said to death.In terms of the rest of it, the Member made a reasonable point about the need for businesses to be included in our plans, and, of course, they are. I talked a lot about nationally commissioned and regionally focused schemes. The Member will be familiar with the workings of the regional skills partnerships, and, of course, they have been consulted in the way that we have looked at our national policy, and they will continue to be consulted, and, indeed, they’ve worked very hard on putting their own plans together.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Minister for her statement today? It’s been very important to look at where we are going to attack some of the issues that affect some of the most deprived communities. I was going to ask about the levy, but I think you’ve answered that quite clearly. [Interruption]. No, it’s okay.But the issues we talked about—clearly, you’ve mentioned it a little bit, but I was disappointed to see in the paper, in the statement itself, no mention of transportation. You have mentioned it in your response to Llyr Gruffydd, in one point, but I think the issue of transportation is critical. Because, if you are focusing upon the needs of the individual, it’s about how that individual gets access to some of those services, not just some of the employment opportunities, but also some of the advice that may be available as well. So, I think we need to look at the issue of transportation.In your statement, you mention that it’s going to be nationally commissioned, regionally managed. Now, does that actually mean there’s a role for regional skills partnerships? What is their role, and can you perhaps focus upon the south Wales partnership, in particular, and the plan they have, and how that fits into the agenda of the employment advice service?Can you also look at perhaps how this scheme would work with other schemes in operation, particularly in my area, with the steel taskforce, and how that’s going to fit in to this whole picture as well—because, clearly, we have many individuals who need the support and services they are providing—and how that fits in with that?Minister, it’s important we tackle the challenges faced by our deprived communities—our post-industrial communities—who are facing some tough times ahead of them. I look forward to seeing how this works for those people.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for those questions, David Rees. I think, on the point of transportation, it’s true I didn’t mention it in the statement itself, but that’s only because you end up with a big, long shopping list if you put everything in—that’s not to denigrate its importance. Clearly, what we’re looking at is looking to see what barriers each individual faces, and, if there’s a transportation difficulty, then we need to find a way to counter that.Indeed, I visited a library up in Blaina, in Abertillery, only the other day, and spoke with a number of people there who were in our digital inclusion groups, and a librarian there, who was a really excellent individual. Nearly everybody there said that transportation was one of the biggest problems they had in accessing the jobs that they were looking for as part of their benefits search. So, I’m very familiar with that, and we will certainly be looking at that. My colleague, Ken Skates, and I are very much part of that proposal.In terms of how it links to the other initiatives we’ve got, you mentioned the steel taskforce, for example, but we also have the Valleys taskforce, and a number of other initiatives, all of which are really working in the same area, but with specific focus on a particular group of people, with particular problems. The whole point about the employability scheme is that it pulls them together and sets them in an overarching policy framework, so that we can ensure that they’re not working against each other, but are, in fact, working in harmony.If I could just use the steel taskforce as an example of not having cohort-driven policies, obviously, there’ll be ReAct funding available for anybody who’s made redundant, but you’ll know that that only applies to employees, and that a lot of the people who become displaced when an industry starts to downsize are actually supply chain contractors and self-employed people, and so on. So, we’re looking to have a more global system that allows people who are not inside the specific category to also access support. So, that’s a very good example of how that would work.And then, lastly, in terms of regional skills partnerships, I’ve been going around Wales, I’ve announced the two plans—for the north and for the south-east—and, very shortly, I’ll be announcing the plan for the regional partnership for the south-west, as all three regional skills partnerships go from their pilot year into their first year of operation. In the south-west, for example, they’ve worked very hard with the city region, and, indeed, with the enterprise zones, to ensure that all of the skills for the growth industries we want for the future are reflected in the plan, and then our funding will follow that, so that we can ensure that, when we’re putting funding in place for skills specifically, we’re funding the skills for the future and not skills for the past.

Julie Morgan AC: I welcome the statement today and I particularly welcome the holistic approach that the Minister is adopting, and that issues about transport, healthcare and support for individuals when they gain work are seen as just as important as the skills that are needed.One of the big issues, of course, is childcare and women’s employability. Does the Minister think that women’s employability is affected by the fact that the leave for childcare still tends to be taken by women? What can we do about that? What does the Minister think we can do about the fact that we want women to access jobs that will be well paid? We all know the figures that 80 per cent of care workers are women and 90 per cent of the workforce in the STEM subjects are men, so how are we going to move ahead and give the support to try and break that down? The other issue, of course, is prejudice amongst employers and other people in the community. What can we do to remove those prejudices? The Equality and Human Rights Commission has looked at pregnancy related discrimination, which has already been mentioned here in this Chamber today, and shows that there is a considerable amount of discrimination about women who are pregnant or who are likely to be pregnant. So, I really welcome everything that the Minister has said today, but if we’re going to look at it holistically, we’ve somehow got to build all that in, as well.

Julie James AC: Amongst some of the policy drivers that we’ve been looking at in putting together the plan, as I was mentioning to Llyr, is looking to see what we can drive by way of other Government investment. So, one of the things we’re only exploring at the moment, but it’s been well received by those I’ve spoken to so far, is that where we support a company, for example, in the engineering or technology sector, where the jobs are better paid, we might be able to provide extra support if they’re prepared to have flexible working practices, flexible hours and so on, to encourage that kind of working, which we know assists women to stay in those careers and return to them after going part-time or, indeed, having a career break to look after their children. So, we’re very much exploring how we can use Welsh Government funding and investment funding to put hooks, if you like, into the funding to encourage the kinds of behaviours in employers that we’d like to see. That goes also for trying to ensure a more diverse workforce in a number of areas—I see Joyce Watson looking at me—so construction is obviously one of them. You and I attended a very interesting healthcare firm in your constituency only yesterday to talk about their plans, and one of the discussions we had was about how they employ their workforce and what the flexible arrangements might be. So, we’re starting to look at that kind of hook to be attached not just to skills training funding, but actually to our procurement funding and to some of our grant-in-aid funding and some of our investment funding, to see what other things we can drive through as we pursue our agenda to have a diverse workforce.I’ll just reiterate something I know we all agree with: that all companies that show diversity in their workforces have better bottom lines than those companies that don’t. So, this isn’t about a nice thing that costs you; this is about a thing that drives your bottom line forward, as well as providing good jobs for good people.

Finally, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Thank you for your statement, Minister, and for some of the reassurance you’ve just given in terms of gender balance in terms of this way forward. I just wanted to know where Welsh language skills might come into your considerations here. Obviously, the new advisory service will be an appropriate place to identify somebody’s latent Welsh language skills, but then so would be the actual providers of employment support. So, I suppose what I’m asking is: can you give us some reassurance today about where exactly the responsibility for identifying and bringing out someone’s Welsh language skills would sit in this? Obviously, the last thing any of us would want would be for this to fall through the gap between the service and the actual providers. Of course, this is particularly relevant when we’ve got poorer areas that are losing their Welsh language skills at the moment.

Julie James AC: The Member makes a very good point indeed. We’d expect that to work all the way through the policy. I would very much expect the employment advice service to be able to pick out somebody who has Welsh language skills and assist them to train so that they can do something with the Welsh language that helps their employability, and we very much will be pushing that. But we’ll also be looking to have bilingual advice services, obviously, so that people who want to access the service in Welsh—perhaps those furthest from the job market would be a particular case in point, so if you’re facing particular economic or social difficulties in accessing employment, you might want to do that through the medium of Welsh, because that’s the language you’re comfortable with; we will be making sure that that’s facilitated. Also, we’ll be making sure that employers take proper account in their skills plans of their Welsh language needs. So, again, in reference to the employer Pelican Healthcare that we met with yesterday, they were talking to us about their need for Welsh language customer service people in their work, and obviously that’s a big growth area in Wales and one of our big selling points. So, we will be absolutely certain to be including that. My colleague Alun Davies and myself have been discussing how we can get the best out of our Welsh language features, both to help individuals but also to help employers identify the skills that they need so that we can fund it accordingly through the regional skills plan. So, it’s very much part of the mix, in exactly the same way, actually, as we were talking about diversity. So, it’s very much part of the diversity mix, and we know that it drives the bottom line. Again, I would emphasise to any employers who are listening to this that this isn’t about putting an extra burden on them; it’s actually about driving their bottom line by providing a better service.

Thank you very much, Minister.

5. 5. Statement: Year of Legends

The next item on our agenda this afternoon is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the Year of Legends—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: North Wales was recently named one of the world’s best regions by Lonely Planet. It’s apt and testimony to Visit Wales’s work that this comes at the end of the Year of Adventure, with the publication stating that North Wales had earned its place due to the transformation that the region has undergone over the last few years. World-first adventure attractions, a glorious coastal path, some of best mountain biking in the UK: the reinvention has of course been driven by visionaries and entrepreneurs, but we have played our role too with Welsh Government leadership, funding and outstanding marketing campaigns, the climax of which has been an epic 2016. Highlights of an action-packed 12 months include the ‘Treasures’ exhibition at National Museum Wales, a ‘Great Weekend of Adventure’ in April, Cadw’s ‘Historic Adventures’ summer, two Red Bull events and the Roald Dahl ‘City of the Unexpected’ extravaganza in Cardiff. And, of course, Wales’s epic footballing adventure in France earlier this year became an opportunity to promote Wales to new audiences across Europe, with an exhibition in Paris and our first ever television campaign in the German market during the week of the semi-finals. The same Visit Wales advert had already been shown on television and in cinemas here in the UK and Ireland, as well as in cinemas in England and Germany as part of an integrated campaign, which also featured print and digital marketing, as well as an adventure roadshow, co-funded with the GREAT campaign, visiting Munich, Cologne, Paris and Amsterdam. The ‘EPIC’ installation summer project was designed to generate social media coverage for Wales’s peak season, drawing in over 8,000 visitors to its Rhossili site alone and boosting Visit Wales’s social following to over 900,000 people. The campaign more broadly has helped to generate record consumer response levels, to attract over 4.8 million visitors to Visit Wales websites in 12 months, and to drive an increase in tour operator business. I’m especially proud of the impact that the year seems to have had here in Wales. Not only has the industry fully backed the initiative, with one group of businesses even taking out their own adverts in Euston station, but our adventure ambassadors have energised the public, and I’d like to thank them wholeheartedly for their inspiration and perspiration throughout. The Year of Adventure has been the subject of prime-time television programmes and extensive media coverage in Wales, and it seems to me that it’s no coincidence that day visitor numbers are especially strong this year. In fact, the increase of over 40 per cent in average expenditure from day visitors is just one of a range of positive indicators that suggest that it may be another bumper year for tourism, with a growth of 15 per cent in international tourism visits during the first six months of 2016 and occupancy levels maintained or increased across most sectors. No wonder some 85 per cent of businesses told us that they are confident about this year. All of this activity continues to provide significant economic growth and employment opportunities in communities around Wales.And the adventure doesn’t end here; the legacy continues with new world-class adventure openings early next year, further investment in world-first adventure products planned and ongoing adventure marketing, even as we add a new layer to our narrative: legends. Our vision as we look ahead to the Year of Legends 2017 is to build on the success of the Year of Adventure with a new and equally competitive dimension to our story. Because 2017 is about bringing our culture and heritage to the centre of our national brand. It certainly isn’t about looking backwards: the Year of Legends is about bringing the past to life as never before, with cutting-edge innovation. It’s about creating and celebrating new Welsh legends, modern-day personalities, products and events that are made in Wales, or enriched by coming here.Our cultural assets will be injected with just as much creativity as we have seen igniting the adventure sector, with activities that are unmistakably Wales, and internationally outstanding. This ambition is crucial because 2016 wasn’t just about adventure, it was also the year of the EU referendum, changing the context for the Year of Legends completely, making it ever more important to internationalise the quality of our product offer with world-class innovation and to sell Wales to the world with renewed energy. Indeed, this week, I have also launched a new approach to promoting Wales for business—international in scope, but telling local stories. The vision is a joined-up, integrated brand with global appeal rooted in a distinctive sense of place, and the Year of Legends is tourism's contribution to this bold approach. The additional budget of £5 million secured for Visit Wales means that, from a tourism perspective, we will respond to this challenge with funding for international-quality and brand-defining experiences and events. Details of next year’s partnership funds will be released shortly. It also enables us to significantly boost our domestic and international marketing efforts with strengthened campaigns in the UK, Germany, key European cities and the United States. A project to underpin this work by transforming Wales’s digital gateway platforms and content capabilities is already under way.‘Legends’ is the perfect theme for this work. We know that culture and heritage are strong attractors for international audiences, but the theme also offers the deep authenticity that today’s domestic markets seek out. Local meets global; old infused with new. Our programme aims to bring these aspects together in exciting ways. We will feature an unprecedented calendar of creative activities in Wales’s castles—more open-door events, a thrilling medieval tournament in Conwy, and the unveiling of two major new artworks of international repute. We will celebrate a land of story-telling, working with VisitBritain to mark the release of a new film about King Arthur, and recognising global talent inspired by Wales, from Dahl to Dylan Thomas to Tolkien, with tours and with trails.A rich and inspiring programme of events, exhibitions and collections delivered by our major cultural partners, including Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales, will feature legendary works and themes. In June, we welcome the UEFA Champions League final to Cardiff, the biggest sporting occasion in the world next year. Expect multilingual digital campaigns, experiential installations and global media coverage, as we set the scene for another legendary sporting event. Cricketing’s champions trophy and golf’s senior open will add to the package of sports events.The summer will also see us create and celebrate legendary festivals and events, and launch a glamping pop-up hotel project, which is already attracting high-profile media attention. We will highlight our food and drink heroes in September, before unveiling new legendary branded touring routes across our country, aimed at international markets, in the autumn.The major, multichannel, multimarket campaign has already started at last week’s World Travel Market, where it was clear that Wales’s distinct and diverse cultural offer has real potential, combined with adventure, to take our brand and performance to a new level, with the aim, of course, of getting the whole of Wales onto shortlists like that of the Lonely Planet in the future, as well as growing our economy. But also, and most importantly, there is also a long-term vision to take pride in and to strengthen and enhance the very fabric of the culture and communities we serve to promote in the first place, providing a firm basis for future legends to emerge.

Neil McEvoy AC: Wales really is a country of legends, but, far too often, they are overlooked. I’ve mentioned in here a couple of times Billy Boston, the Tiger bay legend, but nothing’s been done about it. Hopefully that can change. Before each sporting international, we will sing ‘Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri’, and it's clear that Wales is a land of poets, singers and famous people of renown—that's the English translation. But when you walk around our capital city, you're more likely to see streets named after Normans who conquered us rather than the Welsh people who tried to set us free. If you head out on 25 January, Santes Dwynwen, if you’re all going out, you're more likely to come across haggis and Burns Night than Santes Dwynwen, our Welsh patron saint of friendship and love. And, you know, it's the same on St David's Day, because I remember, in 2011, we created on Cardiff council the St David’s Day Festival, and we couldn't get Brains, of all people, to support the festival, but yet they supported St Patrick's Day—odd.So, you know, while selling Wales and our culture abroad is to be celebrated, we need to sell, also, our culture to our own people in Wales. Who knows about Sycharth, the court of Owain Glyndŵr and the centre of cultural life back then? It could be a great tourist attraction, but it's a vacant hill with a battered old sign barely stating its significance. For me, that sums up Wales. You know, how many people here know of Dafydd ap Gwilym? It took an American to tell me who he was some years back—a great, internationally renowned writer in the fourteenth century; one of Europe's greatest writers. Yet everybody knows who Shakespeare was. Now, we have all these cultural icons unused.The first-ever rail passenger journey took place from Merthyr ironworks to Abercynon in 1804, and what's there now? Just a path and a battered, again, dirty old sign and a plaque. In most countries in the world, you'd have a themed train ride up there and some kind of visitor centre celebrating the history of Wales and the industrial revolution. We have a country and culture that we're proud of, but we need to sell it. And if we sold it, people would buy it. The First Minister takes trips to America, but I don't see many results, because Hollywood has fallen in love with Ireland and with Scotland, with major films celebrating their legends, but, you know, as their Celtic cousin, we remain unknown. Even our rugby legend, Gareth Thomas, who inspired so many people when he came out, well, in the film about him, the character’s Irish, because they felt that being Welsh wasn't internationally known enough to justify a character.I welcome the film initiative about King Arthur—great, great. But what about a film about the father of Welsh democracy in Owain Glyndŵr? Global star Matthew Rees has already announced that he’s determined to make the Welsh equivalent of ‘Braveheart’. Now, would the Welsh Government support such a project? Minister, why not host an event, maybe on St David's Day in 2017, and invite the brightest and the best scriptwriters and actors to Cardiff, to Wales, to talk about taking this project forward? Because I think a film about Owain Glyndŵr could do for Wales exactly what ‘Braveheart’ did for Scotland. And in the book ‘Tourism in Scotland’, it showed that, in 1997, 39 per cent of visitors to Stirling said that ‘Braveheart’ had influenced their decision, and 19 per cent said it was the reason for visiting. So, you know, there's a lot of good stuff in there, and I hope the campaign is a success and it brings much-needed jobs to Wales, because Wales does need to celebrate its legends, so I welcome your initiative. But I think it's important as well not to do it just for one year; it's time to put pride back into Wales from this day forward and every day after this, and it's time to throw off the stifling cloak of colonialism. Diolch.

I think I did detect a question there. It is a statement, and it should be questions to the Minister—[Interruption.] No, that’s okay. Yes, I think I detected a couple there, so perhaps you’d like to answer those, Minister.

Ken Skates AC: Yes, there were a number of points regarding local heroes, community heroes and national legends that I think the Member raised, first of all with regard to Billy Boston. This is a matter that the Member has raised in the past, and I’d be very pleased to receive any interest from any local groups concerning an application for resource to help celebrate this particular legend. We do have, as I outlined during questions last week, a number of funding streams, including the regional tourism innovation fund, that can assist with this sort of development, and I’ll be more than happy to have officials discuss that fund and other potential avenues for support with any community groups that are looking at any events or any installations to celebrate Billy Boston during 2017, or indeed in future years. The Member mentioned Cardiff. In terms of Cardiff and, in particular Cardiff Bay, or Tiger bay, as it was known until recent years, there is a world-class musical in development that will tell the story of Tiger bay’s industrial heritage with the aim of elevating it onto the world stage. Discussions are also under way to develop a highly innovative virtual reality product offer for Cardiff Bay that will further immerse visitors in Wales’s industrial heritage story and deliver what I think will be a truly multidimensional product. I think it’s also important that we recognise that, next year, we will see the completion of one of the biggest heritage renovation projects anywhere in the country, with work due to be completed on the listed Coal Exchange here in Cardiff Bay. I’m in no doubt that, when that particular building opens as a hotel and as a local museum, it will attract attention from around the world, not least because many legends of music and film who are still alive performed at the Coal Exchange before it was closed. So, we are hoping that they will join us in celebrating the reopening of this important building. But industrial heritage is with us right across Wales, and I know, over the past few months, many Members have raised in the Chamber and in writing their hopes for more to be done in promoting our rich industrial heritage. Indeed, it’s very important to the tourism offer in my own constituency, not just with heritage railways, but with former steel and coal sites attracting many visitors. I’m keen that in the Year of Legends we celebrate industrial heritage more than ever before.In terms of selling Wales to America, well, our creative industries are performing better than anywhere else in the UK bar London, attracting significant investments to Wales and enabling Wales to be captured on the big screen. I think that the film trail that’s being put together by Wales Screen captures many of the key locations for significant movies, although it is with regret still that we did not see ‘Spectre’ filmed in this Chamber, because I think that would have added an incredible amount of interest to the National Assembly. But the Member is right—this has to be multi-year. We have to keep the product fresh. We have to ensure that pride is renewed year after year after year, and that’s why I’m determined to make sure that thematic years continue. After 2017 and the Year of Legends we will move into 2018, the Year of the Sea. Years after that are yet to be determined, but I think that the success of the Year of Adventure means that we can go forward with the entire sector alongside us.

Russell George AC: I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon. I do think it is fantastic that Lonely Planet recently announced that north Wales is one of the top four places in the world to visit. I have no doubt that most the best places in north Wales were of course in the Vale of Clwyd, Deputy Presiding Officer.

You’re not getting any extra time. [Laughter.]

Russell George AC: I’ll give it a try in any case. I do suspect that Montgomeryshire is of course No. 1 as well. I’d like to think that that is the case. But I would like to join the Cabinet Secretary in welcoming the reported 25 per cent increase in the number of visitors to Wales, and the increase in the associated visitor spend as well, which now stands £3.5 billion. I’m sure that the success can partly be attributed to the Year of Adventure. The Cabinet Secretary referred to the 15 per cent increase in overseas visitors to Wales, and this shows that Wales has an incredible potential as a global tourism destination. Of course, so much can be done to attract overseas visitors by working with Cardiff Airport, so I’m interested there with regard to that, because I think Cardiff Airport offers routes very much geared to taking people out of Wales, but I’m keen, of course, that Cardiff Airport attracts people into Wales.Also, with regard to the US market—I appreciate that there was a question earlier on this—there’s a huge opportunity here with regard to US visitors visiting Wales. US visitors tend to stay longer and spend more money, and, of course, the exchange rate is an advantage to us at the moment. So, I would be interested in more details about the campaigns that are currently running, or that you plan to run in future, in the US.As I understand it, the biggest rise in overseas numbers to Wales has come from the 13 countries in eastern Europe that have recently joined the EU. So, I would be interested in hearing what the Welsh Government is doing, in association with the tourism sector, in responding to both the challenges and opportunities that are posed by Brexit.The Cabinet Secretary has also said that these promising figures prove that Visit Wales’s marketing is working well and having an impact. I would say, though, and I’m sure that you will agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that it is the tourism businesses that deserve much of the credit for embracing the themes, such as the Year of Legends.Of course, Visit Wales has come a long way with regard to its marketing output, compared to the now-infamous advert that actually championed Wales as the land of outstandingly bad mobile coverage. [Laughter.] Things have moved on since then. In a survey earlier this year, less than a third of tourism businesses believed that recent campaigns had been effective in promoting Wales as a tourist destination, and three quarters still feel that Visit Wales and the Welsh Government could make better use of resources to promote tourism.It’s also important, of course, that we analyse the effectiveness of campaigns. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware—I’ve written to him and asked questions on this next point during committee recently as well—that I am concerned that Visit Wales can’t currently provide a breakdown of figures for each campaign by print, tv and digital marketing. They can’t provide those details to me, and, more importantly, they can’t provide them to you in order to analyse how effective campaigns are. So, I would be grateful if you could commit to making a statement to Plenary when you have got access to that marketing spend, because I think we do need to measure how successful each campaign is. We need to measure how successful the Year of Adventure was, as well as the Year of Legends and, of course, next time, the Year of the Sea. Perhaps you could also widen your answer out on that with regard to how you are measuring, and how you are going to measure, the success of the Year of Legends as well.Finally, Cabinet Secretary, with specific reference to the Year of Legends, I don’t recall you referring in your statement to the decision to postpone the international competition to design and build two landmarks commemorating national legends in 2017—one at Flint castle and one at a separate Cadw site. So, can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to outline the reasons for this postponement and confirm whether the flagship project will be proceeding as planned?I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, once again for your statement. I also, as you do, hope that the Year of Legends campaign will continue to raise the profile of Wales and bring lots of visitors to Wales in the coming year.

Can I advise you not to widen your answers out to the Member, but just keep it succinct and on the statement, please?

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’ll try to deal with the questions as succinctly as possible. It is true that this is a partnership that has grown the visitor economy. It’s not just because of good work by the Welsh Government or Visit Wales—it is down to working in close partnership with the entire sector. I think that the success of the Year of Adventure shows that, now more than ever, we are working as one in promoting Wales.In terms of figures, you’re absolutely right: we are experiencing record numbers of visitors, but it is the expenditure that is most important to businesses, and expenditure by international visitors to Wales has increased by 8.3 per cent. That’s after a record year previously, and a record year before that. What is perhaps most important now is that expenditure by day visitors to Wales is higher than the UK average. Here in Wales, a visitor will spend £38 per visit, compared with £34 in the UK. What that suggests is that the quality of the offer on average here in Wales is now greater than the quality of the offer and the quality of the product across the UK. That’s something that we should be very proud of and we should thank the sector for as well. In terms of Cardiff Airport, well, of course, Cardiff Airport is one of the fastest growing regional airports anywhere in Europe, and is achieving record success. Its continued growth would no doubt be helped through the devolution of air passenger duty, but I am confident that Cardiff Airport are aggressively seeking new routes that will bring new tourists to Wales.In terms of the United States, that’s deemed to be one of our key markets, and I would hope that a proportion of the £5 million—the additional £5 million—that will be spent by Visit Wales will incorporate more marketing opportunities. This brings me to the other point about disaggregating data for marketing campaigns between print, digital, television, and so forth. I think I gave an undertaking in committee last week, which I will give again today, that I will look at providing detailed data in that regard.The art installation competition attracted, in the first instance, insufficient interest and there were also companies that said that they would like to enter but they weren’t in a position to in the short timescale, so it will begin in early December. It will be taking place, and we’ll be in a position during the Year of Legends to unveil the winning installations. In terms of how we judge the success of the Year of Legends, well, we look at the hard facts, which is what I think the Member is asking for. Our goal is to drive more than £320 million of additional consumer spend in Wales from the domestic market, and more than £7 million of travel trade business to Wales from our top-100 operators. If we achieve this, it should deliver another record-breaking year for tourism in Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I first of all welcome the European Champions League final coming to Cardiff? I very much hope there’s a Cardiff player playing in that match, in terms of Gareth Bale. Could I also remind the Minister—and I hope that he’ll welcome it—that there are 19 major sporting events taking place in Wales every year, and that Swansea are playing in the largest league in the world, which brings in a substantial number of people, not just from England but from all over the world, to watch it? If we’re putting bids in, as Neil McEvoy seems to be, can I throw in Ivor Allchurch and Robbie James for major sporting achievement?What I was going to talk about, though, is: have I mentioned Joseph Jenkins, John Elias, Henry Rees, Christmas Evans and, perhaps the one who gives it away, Evan Roberts? Major preachers in Wales. Wales has got a huge reputation for preachers and I think that, if we’re looking at the American market and if we’re looking at the religious parts of America, the role played by these people and others—. And it’s not just America, but Singapore, for example. We’ve got the situation where New Siloh in Landore has been taken over by a church in Singapore. But, we’ve also got a huge chapel, Tabernacle, in Morriston. So, the question I’ve got is: should we be aiming at the American market, but should we be aiming some of our great religious history, some of the great names from our religious history, not least of whom is Evan Roberts? Should we be doing that in order to try to attract American tourists to visit the chapels of Wales? It’s amazing, actually, how many visit Ebenezer in Swansea, which is Christmas Evans’s former chapel, despite the fact it’s not advertised and you have to engage in substantial research to find out where it was and what it is now. So, I think that there’s a huge opportunity there, and I would hope that the Minister would look to try to take advantage of that.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his questions. I, too, am looking forward to the UEFA Champions League final, and I’m very pleased that Swansea football club remain in the premiership and, indeed, we’ll be using their occasions, their matches, to promote Wales as a place for trade and investment by inviting would-be investors to join us at some of their key matches in the present season. There are many, many legends that I’m sure Members would be able to point to, of both national and local interest to their constituencies, as 2017 is all about celebrating not just the national legends that make Wales famous on the global stage, but also celebrating local legends who, perhaps, have been lost or forgotten, but who deserve recognition. I’d encourage all Members to work with community groups to encourage them to participate in 2017 the Year of Legends and, if necessary, to apply for funding to carry out innovative events or to produce very innovative products as well.

David J Rowlands AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement. First, can I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on the very successful Year of Adventure? I would add that following his own personal involvement with Bear Grylls and Richard Parks, we are all grateful that he chose not to pursue a career in that direction. The excellent promotion of such iconic attractions as ZipWorld in Bethesda and the world’s largest underground trampoline in the Llechwedd slate caverns, together with the more established attractions such as Pembrokeshire’s coastal paths and a whole host of other adventure activities too numerous to mention here, must not go unnoticed. I’m sure we all look forward to the Year of Legends having an equally if not better outcome in attracting new and greater numbers of visitors to Wales. I think all of us would agree that there are legends aplenty here in Wales with an equally plentiful landscape of castles and places of historic interest. Whilst this direction of travel is to be welcomed, Cabinet Secretary, does the Cabinet Secretary not agree with me that we should also seek to keep these new visitors in Wales for longer periods? So, could he outline any proposals he has to achieve this? I bring this to your notice because there are a number of hotels in Cardiff that are very worried about access to the hotels, that’s coming about by the development of the bus station and proposals from Cardiff city council. So, could you just outline where you believe we ought to be travelling with regard to that? Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his very kind comments. It has been a pleasure working with the entire sector during the Year of Adventure and in particular the ambassadors who I think have done sterling work in promoting Wales overseas. The Member mentioned ZipWorld and I think what’s worth drawing attention to is that, next year, we’ll see the launch of a new unique product in north-west Wales—an alpine coaster. It will be difficult to find any similar attraction anywhere in the UK and, again, it will contribute to the enhanced reputation that the region has as a destination for adventure. The other point to raise with regard to some new products that have been created in rural Wales is that they are leading to jobs and opportunities particularly for many young people who would otherwise, perhaps, have had to move out of their communities. So, in that regard, the visitor economy, or the performance of the visitor economy, has been absolutely crucial in recent years. I am determined to make sure that it does continue to grow right through to 2020, which will be the end point of the current ‘Welsh Government Strategy for Tourism 2013-2020: Partnership for Growth’. David Rowlands drew attention to the need to turn day visitors into staycation opportunities and that’s absolutely right. We have funded some of the destination management programmes in Wales to draw up tour itineraries and we are also appealing more to tour operators to transform Wales from being a place that is seen as a great place to visit for a day to a great place to visit for at least a weekend or longer. We are also putting together at the moment a routes of Wales project that will enable visitors to come to Wales for a significant length of time to experience some of the most important cultural and heritage routes anywhere in the country.

And, finally, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thanks for your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and I was pleased to hear you open by reiterating how north Wales was voted one of the world’s best regions by Lonely Planet. It won’t surprise colleagues to learn that I cannot hear that enough. The Year of Legends gives us a unique opportunity to showcase both our history and heritage, both the magnificent myths and the legends of our industrial might, and the ordinary working people that helped enable this, bringing both cultural and economic benefits across Wales. Today and tomorrow there’s a Historic Mold exhibition taking place in my constituency—an event that includes the abbreviated history of Mold, learning more about poets and authors like Daniel Owen and, of course, the Mold gold cape. Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be familiar with the story of the Mold gold cape, discovered in 1833 by workmen quarrying for stone in a burial ground, and now considered one of the top 10 treasures of the British Museum in London. Cabinet Secretary, will you meet with me to discuss how the Mold gold cape can be returned to its place of discovery to be exhibited and its story told as part of the Year of Legends? You’d also be welcome to join me on a visit to Mold to look at where the gold cape could be exhibited, and the role that local partners could play to the benefit of the north-east cultural and visitor economy.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Hannah Blythyn for her question, and say that I also very much enjoy repeating the fact that north Wales is the fourth greatest place to visit on the planet, and it’s something that we should all be very proud of? In terms of the Year of Legends, 2016, the Year of Adventure, will see one of the biggest events held back for the end of the year—the segue moment where we move into the Year of Legends—and that will be the Nutcracker experience that is taking place at Theatr Clwyd beginning on 1 December, with, again, a unique product. It’ll be an outdoor ice-skating experience combined with a Nutcracker experience inside the theatre. In terms of the gold cape, this is a hugely important artefact, and I have to say that, when it came to Wrexham museum, I thought it was presented in the most imaginative and compelling way possible to draw visitors to that particular facility. But I’d very much like the gold cape to return to its home town, and therefore I’d be delighted to meet with the Member and with any interested parties from Mold, her constituency, and the local authority of Flintshire, to discuss how we might work with the British Museum, and, indeed, National Museum Wales, in identifying a place within the home town of the gold cape so that it can return, at least for a short period of time, if at all possible, during the Year of Legends.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

6. 6. Statement: Winter Preparedness

We move on to the next item on our agenda, which is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on winter preparedness, and I call Vaughan Gething to make the statement.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to update Members on how NHS Wales, local authorities and other partners are planning to deliver resilient services to citizens for the coming winter period.Last winter, urgent and emergency services experienced days where there were significant surges in demand, especially from patients with increasingly complex care needs. On some days, these peaks were above what could be realistically anticipated for emergency ambulances, primary care out-of-hours and, indeed, emergency admissions to hospital through accident and emergency departments. For example, at the turn of the year, the number of ambulance arrivals at A&E departments reached a peak of 22 per cent higher than the January 2015 average, and A&E attendances were up to 23 per cent higher than the January 2015 average.Pressure on the care system is now recognised as a year-round reality, and yet the overwhelming experience is that our front-line staff continue to provide care with professionalism and compassion. I am sure everyone in the Chamber will join me in expressing appreciation for our dedicated staff, who help people when they need it the most.This year, we instructed NHS Wales and local authorities to develop integrated plans earlier than before to jointly design their response to the challenges that winter will inevitably bring. The NHS and partners held a series of national planning events where key staff scrutinised plans to share learning from previous winters and examples of best practice.In recent years, we’ve seen an increase in the resilience of our system by developing a whole-system approach, so planning and organisations together have built upon the plans and experiences of the last year to prepare for this winter. There are, of course, a range of positive actions planned to further improve resilience, including an increase in bed capacity, given the likely rise in the number of patients with multiple conditions who will require admission to a hospital. We’ll see strengthening of emergency ambulatory care services to enable patients with specific conditions to be treated without needing to stay in hospital overnight, wherever possible. And we’ve seen an overall downward trend in delayed transfers of care, and regional partnerships are actively working to achieve further improvements.Maintaining good patient flow across the whole system is key, and there’s a strong focus on expediting discharge by maximizing our capacity through collaboration. Other areas to strengthen in readiness for this winter include additional step-up and step-down services across Wales to provide short-stay beds for people coming out of hospital who are medically fit, but not ready yet to return home. And those beds will also be used as a step-up for people in the community to avoid a hospital admission. All health boards plan to increase consultant cover over the challenging weekend periods, and that will include focusing the presence of senior decision makers over the weekend, for example, at the front door or on in-patient wards to help support the timely discharge of patients. There will be additional support for primary care out-of-hours services and improved use of social workers in hospital to expedite assessment and discharge, to name but a few.But we also expect to learn from the past, and I am keen for new models of care to be implemented widely to support the needs of patients. I have been impressed by a wide range of innovative approaches, for example, the award-winning ‘bridging the gap’ initiative, which is an integrated approach in the Cardiff area, focusing on supporting patients who regularly attend A&E or call an ambulance, to help improve outcomes and reduce demand; the Môn enhanced care model in Anglesey, which delivers intensive care in the home for acutely ill elderly patients through community resource team working, the key partners being social care, advanced nurse practitioners and GPs; and the western bay community services programme in Swansea, which is a multi-disciplinary team again, aimed at improving access to intermediate care services and keeping people well and independent. Finally, I’m really pleased to say that the 111 pathfinder pilot commenced in the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board in October and it provides a real opportunity to signpost patients to the right service. We’ve supported our health and social care services to deliver safe and timely services over the winter and beyond with significant investment, and we have made tangible improvements. Of course, on 3 November, I announced that this Government has provided an extra £50 million for NHS Wales to help manage demand over the winter and support NHS performance. That is in addition to £3.8 million to support a national programme of pathfinders and pacesetter projects to test new and innovative ways of planning, organising and delivering primary care services, and £10 million comes from the national primary care fund to support the development of primary care clusters. That means an extra 250 additional primary care posts, including GPs, nursing posts, physiotherapists, occupational therapists and pharmacists to name but a few. We’ve also made £60 million available through the intermediate care fund for this year to help prevent unnecessary hospital admissions and delays in discharge. All of these Welsh Government initiatives are making tangible improvements to the delivery of services for people. Importantly, thinking back to last year, our ambulance service this year is in a much better position heading into the winter, following a sustained improvement in performance over the last year. The latest information shows the average response time to immediately life-threatened patients is just four minutes and 38 seconds.For the first time in a single year, we’ve seen over 1 million A&E attendances and this demand, combined with our ageing population and an increase in patients with complex needs, presents a real pressure within our system. Similar pressures are seen right across the NHS family within the UK. There is, of course, much more to be done to deliver the improvements that we want to see, but we have seen general improvements in performance against key emergency care access targets over the last six months. Of course, we can all play our part as citizens to help the NHS through increasing the take-up of free flu vaccines for those eligible and carefully considering whether a pharmacist is the best option when we do feel under the weather. Finally, of course, we are urging people to ‘Choose Well’ this winter by keeping themselves warm. That will help prevent colds, flu or more serious health conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, pneumonia or depression. All of us recognise that winter is a challenging time for health and social care. We’ve seen successive years of rising demand that will continue to challenge the entire system, and that reinforces the need for a whole-system approach. No-one should pretend that winter will be easy, but I firmly believe the extensive local and national preparation will deliver robust, resilient services so that people have access to the care they require when they need it.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the statement today. As it happens, the health committee here at the Assembly is having an inquiry into winter preparedness in the NHS. We’re looking forward to the evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary in the next few days. Yes, there is evidence that has been heard as part of our inquiry so far that does show elements of additional pressure—paediatrics is a specific one that has emerged. But what does come to the surface most is that, if the health service had the general capacity to cope throughout the year, it would have the capacity to deal with any temporary increase that happened, whether in the winter or at any other time of the year, for example, in the summer, when A&E departments are busiest. What we have in this statement today is an outline of a number of things that the Government is doing to try and respond to the challenges of the winter, but I do believe that that does ignore those broader factors. He mentions trying to reduce access to A&E departments and overnight stays, but he doesn’t mention much about social care apart from saying that social workers are going to be in hospitals in order to accelerate the process of getting people discharged. And we know, of course, that there is a lack of integration in the system as it stands.Pedwar cwestiwn cyflym os caf i: mae’r datganiad yn cydnabod bod y pwysau ar y system drwy gydol y flwyddyn, fel y dywedais.A yw Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn hapus y gall capasiti cyffredinol y system ymdopi â'r pwysau y mae bob tymor yn ei chyflwyno? A chofiwn fod y gaeaf yn dod bob blwyddyn.Yn ail, gwelyau ychwanegol: efallai y gallech roi ychydig mwy o fanylion i ni am y math o welyau ychwanegol yr ydych chi’n eu gweld yn cael eu cyflwyno.Yn drydydd, cwestiwn penodol ynglŷn â chadw cleifion draw oddi wrth eu meddyg teulu: mae GIG Lloegr wedi cael llawer iawn o gyhoeddusrwydd ynghylch ei gynllun i adael i fferyllwyr weld pobl â dolur gwddf er mwyn penderfynu a yw'r haint yn firaol neu’n facteriol.A yw GIG Cymru yn ystyried hynny yn benodol?Ac, yn olaf, gan ei droi wyneb i waered i ryw raddau, ymddengys bod llawer o ymdrechion y Llywodraeth, yn canolbwyntio ar gyflymu’r broses o ryddhau cleifion, ond gwyddom am waith ymchwil sy'n dangos peryglon i rai cleifion o gael eu rhyddhau’n rhy gynnar.Beth y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod ysbytai yn rhoi cymaint o sylw i gadw pobl yn yr ysbyty, os mai dyna'r penderfyniad clinigol cywir, beth bynnag fo pwysau’r gaeaf, fel na chaiff y broses o ryddhau cleifion fyth ei chymell gan y pwysau yn y tymor byr i greu lle?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. In terms of your opening comments, I don’t accept your assessment that there’s not much mention of social care. Social care is crucial to the whole system working. It isn’t just about social workers within hospitals—when you think about the ICF and the way that works, that’s got to be a partnership with social care. And, in your own constituency, the specific example I mentioned of the Ynys Môn enhanced care only works because you’ve got social care, advanced nurse practitioners and GPs working together. And, in fact, consultants in Ysbyty Gwynedd are very, very positive about the scheme, because they recognise the real benefits it brings. There are similar schemes around the country that only work because you have that whole-system partnership taking place, and that’s what we need to see more of throughout the year, as well as, of course, at the heightened demand point of winter.To deal with your point about summer and winter demand and whether we’ve got the right capacity, well, the demand profile is different. There are more numbers in the summer, but, actually, the profile of patients coming in in the winter means that, actually, they’re more likely to take up space in a hospital, because it’s more likely to be the right choice for them, and they’re more likely to stay for longer as well, because we do know they’re more likely to be older people who are sicker and who have a more complex basket of conditions to be addressed. So, that’s why we know the pressure is entirely different in winter, even though the numbers themselves are reduced. So, that’s why we look at surge capacity within the acute care system. That’s a sensible thing to plan for in the way you have the balance between unscheduled and planned care in the winter as well: the balance changes. But also it’s why I made mention of the step-up and step-down facility. Some of this is about using our suite of community hospitals, but it’s also about more intelligent commissioning capacity within the residential care sector. We could and should do more progressively with the independent sector to look at what capacity exists and to make sure it works for both health and social care, and about how we spend that public money, as it may be a more appropriate place for someone to recover outside of a hospital if they’re medically fit for discharge.That brings me to your final point—I’ll jump back to pharmacy—about keeping people in if it’s the right clinical choice. I don’t have very many instances at all where people write to me and they say, ‘My relative or I should have stayed longer in a hospital bed: that was the right place for me’. It’s almost always people saying, ‘I wanted to go, I was ready to go, but I needed more support to enable me to do that’. And we actually think the biggest problem in delayed transfers of care is patient choice, where people don’t want to leave because the place they want to go isn’t available. That means, of course, they’re occupying a hospital bed where someone with a much greater need isn’t able to access it. There are difficult challenges here, but I don’t think there’s a system-wide challenge for people to be taken out of a hospital before they’re ready. Of course, if that did happen, that would be a concern, but our big system challenge is actually helping to get people out when they’re ready to leave to move to a more appropriate part of the care system, either to have care at home, with support or without, or to have care in a different setting.Finally, because I won’t ignore the point about pharmacy, we’re not just interested in sore throats. The common ailments scheme that we have is much broader than that, and I expect this winter a rolling-out of the common ailments scheme, of course, enabled by the investment we’ve made in IT infrastructure and the sharing of the GP record.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, thank you very much for your statement today. The first point I would like to concur with you on is to show appreciation to the staff who help maintain our NHS services during the winter, when, I think we all recognise, there do seem to be extraordinary pressures, and I would like to pay my tribute to them as well.This is a pretty upbeat statement, and I’m quite sure it reflects extremely your hopes for us dealing with the winter pressures, but I have to tell you, Minister, it does not reflect the evidence that we’ve been hearing throughout our committee sessions. So, a couple of key points I’d like to ask you about: you talk about having a range of positive actions planned to improve further resilience. Have you been utterly satisfied that the health boards have put this in place? Because when we’ve talked to GPs and we’ve talked to various A&E clinicians, the royal colleges, et cetera, they are less convinced that there has been a fully integrated discussion about how we can handle winter pressures. So, I’d like to be assured that you are reassured that our health boards have really got this taped, because, as I say, it does not reflect what we’ve been hearing.I’m interested to understand, Cabinet Secretary, where the staff are coming from, where these extra beds are coming from. You talk about more beds in hospitals perhaps being opened up for the winter pressures, you talk about community beds, but there’s been a real slide in the number of beds in both hospitals and within the community, and I would like to understand how that is going to be rectified in such a short space of time, given that winter is just about here. An example I would give you is that there’s been a 30 per cent decline in the number of district nurses. So, how are we going to be able to keep people in the community and out of hospital, being looked after by GPs and being looked after by other services?You talk about an overall downward trend in delayed transfers of care, but, Minister, every month, there are about 450 people waiting in hospitals for social care packages to be put into place so that they can escape a hospital confine and continue with their lives. How do you square that number we’ve already got in July, August, September, October—and that’s before we get into winter pressures—when, as you’ve acknowledged yourself, the case mix changes quite dramatically and we have far more older, more frail, and more vulnerable people and, of course, a lot more young children entering into hospital with acute needs?Could you please, perhaps, explain how we’re going to be able to catch up with that shortfall, given that there’s also a social worker shortage? Because everything in your statement sounds absolutely great, but we all know that we are struggling to get enough staff into the health system, and I just can’t quite see how they suddenly managed to pull the rabbit out of the hat and this is going to work brilliantly well for the next three or four months.May I also ask you if you have tasked the health boards with looking at developing more the idea of having acute clinicians in charge of specific departments such as orthopaedics, such as paediatrics, able to divert people from A&E to take the pressure off? Because the evidence appears to show that we can divert about 30 per cent of people away from A&E into GP out-of-hours—but, again, all of these services only function if they have the social workers on call, if they have the physiotherapists, if they’ve got the mental health workers to support. So, great statement, very positive and upbeat, I appreciate you’ve had the discussions with the health boards, but I really find it hard to swallow that there’s been this massive change in the hospital regimes and the community services that we have available, with the shortages of staff we have, that’s going to enable us to cruise through the winter in a way that I fear the health boards may hope that they can do. After all, we’ve been here every single year, talking about winter pressures. Experience is beginning to outweigh hope on this, and we do want to come up with some solutions that are utterly sustainable for the future. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. I think I can be upbeat and ambitious about where we could and should be and talk about a resilient service, but, as I’ve said several times in my statement, winter will be a challenge; it always is. We know that the demand profile changes in winter. We know that when we talk about the service under pressure, we're talking about our staff, and I'm very pleased that you’ve paid tribute to NHS staff. Staff in the NHS and in social care have an extremely difficult job to do, and, actually, the NHS system keeps going because of the additional efforts made by social care staff, to make sure that they can get people out of hospital acute settings and into social care settings. So, the improvements we've seen in the last few years in keeping packages of care open, for example, has been crucial to keeping flow work within the whole system. Of course, that was one of the points that you made about the investment in community services, in that every health board has a slightly varying setting, but they’ve made that investment in community services, not only thinking about—I know there's a challenge with district nurse numbers, but, actually, community-based nurse numbers have increased over the last six years, but also, the partnership with a variety of people in the third sector and in housing as well, and they've been crucial to make sure that community support mechanism actually exists to enable them to go back to their own home or to a different care setting out of an acute hospital bed.I am, of course, looking forward to attending committee and, yes, I look forward to answering all the additional questions you don't get a chance to ask today. But, you know, there is a range of things as well I do want to point out. In terms of that thing about flow in and out of a hospital as well, about keeping people out of hospital when it's not the right place—points raised by Rhun ap Iorwerth—but, on delayed transfers of care, it's a significant achievement to have levelled off and levelled down the numbers of delayed transfers, and there's no pretending from me or anyone else that this is not going to be a pressure through the winter. We saw last winter a rise in delayed transfers of care at the toughest points in the winter, and you would expect that to be the case; it would be unrealistic to think otherwise. But, the system in Wales has seen a downward trend over a number of years compared to record rises and record levels of delayed transfers—they call them delayed discharges—in England, and also similar problems in Northern Ireland and in Scotland. So, actually, we stand out against that picture by having seen a fall-off, but our ambition is to see more, rather than just be satisfied with where we are.And in terms of the points made about hospital flow, within the hospital system, we recognise there’s a challenge. I'm not sure how bluntly the Royal College of Emergency Medicine put it, but we know that there’s sometimes a feeling that, at the front door, where lots of pressure is concentrated, there's both a need for more decision makers, as I’ve said in my statement, as each hospital system recognises, but also to think about how the responsibility at the front door doesn't just start and end at the front door either. What that means is I want to see a push into our hospitals, but also a pull through the system as well, and that's part of the challenge in pretty much every hospital across Wales, to make sure there is that shared responsibility for different departments, and not just leaving the emergency department to fend for itself, essentially.Now, just in terms of closing off, you asked me whether I'm utterly satisfied with the position as it is. It would be a brave, if not a foolish person in my position who said they were utterly satisfied with where we are. We recognise that we have in improving picture on planning and preparing for winter and it's important to set that out. We're in a better position now than we were last winter or the winter before. But, as I say, no-one should pretend that winter will be easy or that it will be perfect; we expect there will be challenging points in time and there will be more learning to take from this winter as well, but I expect the system to be resilient. Unlike some parts of England last winter and the winter before, I expect the doors to be kept open, unless there really is truly, extraordinary, over and above what we could reasonably expect. And that's what I'm aiming for: safe, compassionate care, and delivered with dignity for people who really need it, and then to learn again and to improve again for next winter, too.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, I agree with you; we all want to strive for safe and compassionate care for all our constituents and people in Wales, and I therefore welcome the statement that you’ve given today, particularly on the attempts to ensure that we get that during the winter pressure months. Can I also join you in praising the professionalism and dedication of our staff? I declare an interest in that my wife is one of those members of the front-line staff. But, it is important that they actually are recognised for the hard work that they put in, and I join Angela Burns in a couple of points. I am concerned about the workforce levels, particularly, sometimes, when we see sickness levels increased as a consequence of the pressure that puts on the remaining staff, and I would like to have, perhaps, consideration of how that will be tackled, particularly also in relation to district nurses, because district nurses—as you identified, there are more in the community, but there is a shortage of district nurses across the areas and, as a consequence, I have seen directly that there are sometimes difficulties in getting district nurses to come out and support individuals, because of the pressures upon them.On your statement, a couple of points: you were talking about the extra beds. I am going to ask the same question about the staffing levels and the resource levels for those extra beds, because what I don’t want—. I’m often told by the health boards, ‘More beds and we’ll fill them quickly’. I don’t want to see more beds being filled up and then just being stagnant, because delays in transfer of care sometimes in my patch are not as good, perhaps, as they are across Wales. It’s important that we put the staffing levels in to ensure that those are used effectively.You talk about an improved use of social workers, not more social workers. Are we going to be looking at more social workers based in hospitals so we can get those care packages rather than an improved use of social workers? You mentioned additional step-up, step-down services in your statement, and that the beds are also used as a step up for people in the community to avoid hospital admission, but who’s going to actually admit them into those units? Who’s going to make the decision as to whether they go into those units? Will that be a GP? Will that be a nurse? Will it be the individual? Who is actually going to be deciding whether they go into those particular units and those particular beds? I also want to perhaps ask questions about the elective surgery we often see postponed or cancelled. Last year in my own health board area they cancelled several elective surgery cases. For a couple of months, as a consequence, we saw patients having further delays and experiencing further pain and anguish whilst they waited for the next surgery to come through. What sort of indication has been given by the health boards that they are taking those matters into consideration and that patients will not be experiencing those lengthy delays? We often see them going up to 36 weeks, and sometimes beyond the 36-week target, but I don’t want to see these patients going beyond simply because they haven’t considered how they will tackle elective surgery during that winter period.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the points—a number of similar points to Angela Burns, and some novel ones as well. In terms of the workforce challenge, as I say, we recognise it. In every statement that I make in this Chamber, every set of questions, I expect to get asked about the workforce challenges. These are challenges that are not unique to Wales, but we have a responsibility to help navigate our way through. I recognise the challenge about district nurses, even though other forms of community nurses have increased in number, and the challenge always is: how do we provide the right service so it is available for citizens so they can get good quality care, advice and support? Actually, nurses are really important keeping people out of hospital as well as caring for them where they are. We’re making better and better use of the skills of the nursing profession both to triage and to support people and to keep them in their own homes for longer, with more independence. Actually, nursing staff are crucial, of course, to making extra beds work within an acute setting. There’s always a challenge about how and what you flex. Some of the staff within the system are prepared to work longer hours, but for a period of time. You can’t expect that level of activity to go on through the whole year in addition to the potential to have proper contract and agency arrangements as well. Now, the challenge always is about understanding the financial demand that brings as well, but there is a need—if you need extra beds and extra surge capacity around how you staff, that has to be part of the planning process. That’s why we expect every health board, with their local authority and service partners, to understand what they’re doing in the whole plan. I have to confirm that, with social workers, we’re seeing more social workers placed in hospitals as part of the team. It isn’t simply about organising and taking people in different parts of the system. We know there’s a challenge with the social workforce about our numbers, but actually there’s a recognition that it’s a better place to have more social workers there as part of that team to help support people to return to the community. In terms of admission to any facility, it will have to be the clinician or the team of clinicians that makes that choice. It won’t be driven by points of view abut finance; it will be driven by what is clinically the appropriate place for someone to receive and take part in care. Finally, I want to deal with perhaps the main new point you make, about elective admissions and elective activity. We know that, in the winter, we actually see a significant amount of elective activity take place. It isn’t true to say that no elective activity takes place in the winter. There are compromises with unscheduled care when there’s an increase in bed capacity taken up though unscheduled care, but elective activity still takes place. In fact, last winter, comparing January to March in 2016 with January to March in 2015, we saw more than 4,000 additional elective procedures take place within NHS Wales, so there’s a real need to continue to see more activity take place to make sure that people don’t wait unacceptable lengths of time. I don’t want to stray into an entirely different point, but I recognise the challenge and pressure of elective activity in the winter, and some of the £15 million of resource we’ve given out will go into supporting elective activity through the winter.

Finally, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his comprehensive statement, which is very welcome? I do think it shows that the Government has given much thought and consideration to the issue, because it is evident. There are a whole variety of factors that impact on the preparedness of health and social services to cope with those additional winter pressures, and all of those have been well rehearsed time and time again. But this statement does give me some hope that the issues taken in evidence have been considered and that that has been done without complacency, and it gives me confidence that what can be done, I think, will be done. I think that we will be looking forward to a better winter in health and social services in Wales than, unfortunately, our colleagues in England.So, I just want to ask two very simple questions, Cabinet Secretary, if I may: one that I’ve raised in the past, and is in relation to the Choose Well campaign and its contribution to ambulance response times and making people think twice before attending accident and emergency departments; and also on staff take-up of flu vaccinations. I note, Cabinet Secretary, you referred in your statement to the Choose Well campaign, but I wonder if you could say specifically how you believe that the campaign can contribute to the Government’s strategy. It’s kind of mentioned there in passing, but how can that contribute to the strategy to alleviate those spikes, particularly in hospital admissions?Could you also tell us what more you think can be done to encourage NHS staff to take advantage of flu vaccinations, therefore not only reducing the risk of cross-infections but helping to address reduced staffing levels through sickness absence caused by people going off with flu during this critical period?

Cabinet Secretary.

Vaughan Gething AC: Hello. Sorry?

[Inaudible.]—to answer.

Vaughan Gething AC: Sorry. Thank you for the comments and questions—said with the authority of a former head of health for Unison, of course. I think, actually, that the point you made early at the start about the English system—. Part of our challenge in Wales is to recognise the challenges that the more disjointed system in England has delivered for their staff and citizens, but also to make real the theoretical advantages and to see those made real in practice by having an integrated and planned system here in Wales—that’s really to be more and more progressive through each winter but also through elective and unscheduled activity in the rest of the year.I’m pleased you mentioned Choose Well. It was fronted again this year by Andrew Goodall, the chief executive of NHS Wales. There’s something here about the citizen being engaged in their own healthcare choices and actually helping the system. In doing that, there’s a real benefit for the individual. It depend on which set of figures you listen to, but between 9 per cent and 30 per cent, depending on who you talk to, of people who turn up at an emergency department don’t need any form of healthcare intervention. Some people could be dealt with in a different healthcare setting. Again, you need to think about the authors of those different figures, but there is a significant number of people who turn up at emergency departments who don’t need to be there at all, either because they don’t need healthcare intervention or because they could get it somewhere else, either within the community, in a pharmacy or somewhere else. So, that’s a really important part of it.The challenge is how we engage the public in making those choices, because if you turn up in an emergency department and you wait a period of time for a fairly simple intervention that you could get on a high street, that’s your own time you’ve taken up as well as, potentially, diverting decision makers and people giving care in that setting from people who have really serious needs and really are in an emergency or an accident department because of a serious accident or a genuine emergency. So, there’s something here about getting people to engage and actually make it easy for their own friends and loved ones who could be in that position of needing that extra care to access it more rapidly.We will, of course, be looking to evaluate the Choose Well campaign. I’ve already asked, for the end of this winter period, to have a proper evaluation to understand the impact that it has already had to give us real lessons for the future. I think that’s important, too.On the flu vaccine—I’m really pleased you mentioned this, because I’m delighted with the work that Rebecca Evans has been leading on on this year’s flu vaccination campaign. There’s a need to understand the balance between pharmacies and GPs in delivering the flu vaccine, but also, in particular, to think about people who work in social care or the health service to make sure that they actually take up the flu vaccine themselves. By definition, those people are working with vulnerable people, and the challenge is that if they don’t take up the flu vaccine, there’s a point there about the continuity of health and social care in being able to deliver and practise themselves anyway, but also the potential for some of those vulnerable people to make them more ill and raise the chance of them acquiring the flu in the first place.So, I am looking forward to a positive outcome from this year’s campaign. We will learn from this year’s campaign, whatever the results are, to see further progress and improvement for the next year as well. But I do think there’s a real challenge here for the independent sector of social care in particular to make sure that they take up the opportunities around business continuity about how we deliver this in a real, embedded manner, potentially in commissioning, and the Minister may have more to say about that in committee this week.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

7. 7. The Residential Property Tribunal Procedures and Fees (Wales) Regulations 2016

We move on to the next item, which is item 7, the Residential Property Tribunal Procedures and Fees (Wales) Regulations 2016. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to move the motion—Carl.

Motion NDM6135 Jane HuttTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales; in accordance with StandingOrder 27.5:Approves that the draft The Residential Property Tribunal Procedures and Fees(Wales) Regulations 2016 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the TableOffice on 18 October 2016.

Motion moved.

Carl Sargeant AC: I formally move.

Thank you. There are no speakers for this debate, therefore the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. 8. Debate: The Children's Commissioner for Wales's Annual Report 2015-16

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We move on to the next item on our agenda, which is a debate on the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’s annual report. I call on Carl Sargeant, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, to move the motion.

Motion NDM6136 Jane HuttTo propose the National Assembly for Wales:Notes the Children's Commissioner for Wales' Annual Report 2015-16.

Motion moved.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’s annual report 2015-16. This report underlines the importance of the commissioner’s role in championing the rights of children and young people in Wales. It reflects her first full year in post and sets out many achievements. It also demonstrates her clear independence of both the Welsh Government and the Assembly. That independence is underpinned by the separation of the Government’s responsibility for the commissioner from the Assembly’s ability to hold her to account. We will, therefore, be opposing Plaid Cymru’s amendment 2, which would combine responsibility and accountability in the hands of the Assembly.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Carl Sargeant AC: The report is an important contribution to continuing dialogue between the commissioner, Welsh Government and the Assembly, all those working with children, parents and, of course, children themselves. Llywydd, we will publish a considered Welsh Government response to the report at the end of the month, and I expect that we will welcome and accept some of the recommendations, like those on promoting positive mental health for children and strengthening the provision of statutory advocacy. Others will require more thought and discussion with a wide range of stakeholders in order to identify the best way forward in the interests of children. Today, we are asking the Assembly to note the report in order to start the process of wider engagement with the recommendations, and we will be opposing Plaid Cymru’s amendment 1, not because we oppose particular recommendations, but because it would be wrong to pre-empt the wider debate required. This has been a year of change and opportunity for both the commissioner and the Government and, in May, we reported on the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. They praised Wales specifically for introducing a new domestic abuse offence, taking measures to address child sexual exploitation and abuse, and introducing a statutory defence for all potential victims of child trafficking and legislating for play. Despite challenging economic circumstances, we have made significant progress in educational reform, with the development of childcare and early-years provision, making play opportunities available, tackling hate crime and discrimination, and improving health and social care services. ‘Taking Wales Forward’ sets out our programme to drive improvement in the Welsh economy and public services, delivering a Wales that is prosperous, secure, healthy and active, ambitious and learning, united and connected. Its aim is to make a difference for everybody, at every stage in their lives, including children and young people.Llywydd, turning to some specific issues, both the commissioner’s report and the UN committee highlighted the issue of mental ill health, stressing the need to improve child and adolescent mental health services, for greater support in schools and better service collaboration. We take this persistent problem for children and young people very seriously. Our 10-year ‘Together for Mental Health’ delivery plan includes a plan to support all children and young people to be more resilient and better able to cope with the absence of mental well-being, when necessary. The curriculum reform process is a key aspect of how we’ll deliver this. The Together for Children and Young People programme and our CAMHS investment of almost £8 million are complementary and are progressing in parallel. Engaging young people in every aspect of the programme’s work is critical.Additional learning needs are highlighted also in the report. It is a priority for this Government and an area where important engagement continues between us and the commissioner’s office. We are grateful for the commissioner’s response to our consultation on the draft Bill and for the involvement of her office in the development of reforms more generally, especially through the code content development group. The Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language expects to introduce the Bill in the Assembly before Christmas recess. The proposed legislative changes are just one part of a much wider additional learning needs transformational programme. The change in the law is not the end point: it’s the beginning of a transformational process of learning. The commissioner also raised concerns about children who are under the radar of the universal services in health and education. We have revisited and strengthened our elective home education guidance and this will be published in the next coming weeks. We will need to consider and consult carefully on whether to move beyond that, but I want to be clear that our careful approach is about ensuring the best practical safeguards for all children. I recognise that early intervention is key to long-term health and well-being and I’ve outlined my priorities about tackling adverse childhood experiences and building resilient communities, and I think these align with many of the issues that concern the commissioner. I want to ensure that our policies tackle the underlying problems that can lead to adverse childhood experiences and have long life effects. Over the next coming months we will look afresh at how this Government can support resilient communities, which can offer children the best start in life. I’m confident, Llywydd, that this Government is working to make children’s rights a reality in every part of Wales and I’d like to thank the commissioner and her office for this annual report. We will give the recommendations detailed consideration and encourage the widest possible public debate so that we can ensure the best outcomes for children and young people in Wales. I look forward today to listening to this debate.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendments 1 and 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point to end of motion:Calls on the Welsh Government to resolve to implement the report's recommendations, and in particular those relating to:a) improving children's experiences of mental health care;b) introducing a national approach to statutory advocacy as a matter of priority;andc) strengthening the registration requirements of elective home education.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Calls for responsibility for the Children's Commissioner for Wales to be transferred to the National Assembly for Wales.

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I move amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Plaid Cymru. I want to start by congratulating the children’s commissioner, not only on the annual report, but for her work over the past year. I know, of course, that that work is based on firm foundations following the ‘What Next?’ consultation—the biggest consultation ever with children and young people, carried out by the commissioner’s office, with over 7,000 children and young people responding. That was a firm foundation for identifying priorities, planning a programme of work and, of course, driving some of these recommendations contained in the report forward.The first amendment is tabled quite simply not because I’m not happy to note the children’s commissioner’s annual report—of course I’m happy to do that—but I just don’t think that noting the report is enough. It doesn’t seem to do justice to the recommendations contained within the report. I believe that it would be beneficial for us to send a stronger message to reflect how determined we are to tackle the issues that have been highlighted in this report.Therefore, in addition to noting the report, as the first amendment suggests, I would say that we should decide to take action on those recommendations. It’s a clear statement of support, a vote of confidence in the children’s commissioner and a statement that we are standing shoulder to shoulder with her and with children and young people in Wales, by not just acknowledging problems but to be more purposeful in placing more emphasis on tackling those problems. But I do hear the Cabinet Secretary’s comments that the Government will respond, but I just think that the message from this place this afternoon would be much stronger if we were to accept the amendment.Of course, we do welcome the ambitious new targets for child and adolescent mental health services, but, as the commissioner states, it is a very inconsistent picture across Wales. Some services have reduced waiting times very significantly. Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board in north Wales is one of them, going down from 550 waiting to 82 young people waiting. It’s the most dramatic fall that we’ve seen in Wales perhaps. But then we look at the figures in somewhere such as Abertawe Bro Morgannwg, and we see an increase in the numbers waiting, up to 630 children and young people waiting to be seen by CAMHS services—over 200 of them waiting longer than 14 weeks. Those figures are very different to the figures for adult mental health services, where the numbers waiting are far lower in all health boards. So, progress has been slow in some areas and has been inconsistent across Wales, and I do feel that we need a stronger statement of intent to tackle those problems.The importance of advocacy, of course, and ensuring that children in receipt of care have access to independent advocacy is particularly important, particularly after the Waterhouse inquiry found that those who had been physically and sexually abused over a period of decades in north Wales care homes weren’t believed. Nobody listened to them, to all intents and purposes. The previous children’s commissioner mentioned his frustration at the slow pace of response to recommendations that he made for independent advocacy in ‘Missing Voices’ and in the report that followed that, ‘Missing Voices: Missing Progress’. The need to implement a national approach to statutory advocacy for children and young people is now the subject of an inquiry by the Children, Young People and Education Committee here in the Assembly. We are still awaiting confirmation as to whether local authorities and the Welsh Government will implement a national model for statutory advocacy services in accordance with the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014.Finally, and this is an issue that I have raised with the First Minister previously, there is no legal requirement for parents to register with the local authority if they educate their children at home, and neither is there any requirement on local authorities to monitor or to inspect the home teaching provision. That isn’t acceptable, in my view. In her report, the commissioner raises the issue in the context of the death of Dylan Seabridge. He was home educated and he had no contact with public services during the seven years prior to his death. I understand the concern among a number of people that there is risk of us tarring everyone with the same brush in trying to tackle that risk, but whilst there is an element of risk to one child in Wales, then I don’t think that it’s an overreaction for us to go further than what we have seen happening in the past. It’s not acceptable, in my view, that the current situation should persist. We need to tackle this issue as a matter of urgency.The second amendment, of course, refers to the need to transfer responsibility for the children’s commissioner from the Government to the National Assembly. This is an issue that has been aired in this context and in the context of other commissioners in the past. I do believe that the arguments as they were put forward then are just as valid today, and I also believe that it would be desirable for the Assembly to support that amendment. That, of course, is also the view of the commissioner herself, and we shouldn’t forget that within this debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Minister, for bringing this debate forward today in Government time. I think it’s always very useful for us as a National Assembly to reflect on the annual report of the children’s commissioner, and the excellent work that she and her team do across the whole of Wales. I want to put on record my thanks to her for making regular visits to north Wales, including to places in my constituency, to engage with children and young people there. I think it is important that we reflect on the many recommendations in the commissioner’s report, and I’m pleased that Plaid Cymru have drawn attention to a number of them in the amendments that they have tabled. I support wholeheartedly their calls for a greater focus from the Government on dealing with some of the appalling waiting times for access to mental healthcare for children and young people in Wales. We’re halfway through a programme that is supposed to address these excessive waiting times, and yet those waiting times are exactly the same at the moment as they were at the start of that programme. There have been some changes in some parts of the country but, unfortunately, they’re stubbornly too long. Frankly, it’s not good enough that we’re treating our children and young people as second-class citizens when it comes to accessing some of these very important services. I benefit in my constituency from having a flagship CAMHS unit in Abergele, alongside the hospital there, and it is a great tragedy to me that that unit is not full—not all of the beds are in use—and yet local young people from north Wales are being sent out of the country in order to access services many miles away from their support network. So, there neds to be a greater focus on addressing some of those things, and I’m pleased that Plaid Cymru have brought that amendment forward. I also note, of course, the conversation that has been going on around the death of Dylan Seabridge, and note the Government’s response to that earlier in the year and, indeed, the comments that the Cabinet Secretary has made today about the way in which he is approaching taking forward some of the learning from that very, very tragic case. I think that the Government is taking the right approach here in terms of cautiously moving forward without leaping to a conclusion that there needs to be compulsory registration of home-educated children. The Cabinet Secretary no doubt will be familiar with the facts that home-educated children are twice as likely as schoolchildren or under-fives to be investigated by social services, yet half as likely to be placed on a child protection plan. So, it’s a clear indication that there appears to be less of a risk associated with home-educated children, and not a greater risk, which is what Plaid Cymru seem to be asserting. So, let’s not have a knee-jerk approach. I think that the cautious approach that the Government is taking is the right one, and on that particular issue, it’s not something that I agree with in terms of one of the recommendations that have actually been made by the children’s commissioner.We know as well, of course, that, particularly in Dylan Seabridge’s case, this family were known to statutory authorities; they were known to the professionals in different organisations, and a whistleblower did contact the local authority to express concerns about the family, and these things did not trigger, in my view, the appropriate responses from the authorities. So, we don’t know what the outcome would’ve been had things been handled differently, but I suspect very much that simply having a compulsory register would not have made that much of a difference.I too share Plaid Cymru’s aspiration, though, regarding the need to ensure that there is accountability to this National Assembly for the children’s commissioner. We have a number of commissioner posts now here in Wales, in addition to other corporations sole, such as the Auditor General for Wales, and all of the ways in which they are appointed are inconsistent. That cannot be right. We need to have more consistency about these sorts of roles, and therefore, I would welcome the Government taking a different approach to the appointment of the children’s commissioner. I know from previous conversations with the Government that there is an appetite to have more consistency, but for some reason, nobody appears to be actually moving forward with making any changes. So, we will be supporting the amendment 2 that’s been tabled by Plaid Cymru on that matter.But it is important that we’re having this conversation. I’m grateful to the children’s commissioner for the work that she does. There are lots of recommendations in this document. I’ve highlighted just a few that we’ve got the time to discuss this afternoon, but I very much hope that her powers also, as part of any review, will be extended, so that she’s got bigger teeth to bite people with if necessary.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I wanted to pick up on two things that are in the report and one that is not. First, I would also like to hear from the Minister about the children who are at risk when they’re being home educated, simply because they’re not being seen regularly by other services. As the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child observes, they do need to be seen by a professional at least annually, so they can express a view about their educational experiences, apart from anything else. So, I would press the Minister for a response on that particular point.One of the most important things that is raised in the annual report is around the rights of children to be able to walk or cycle to school safely. I’m glad to see that she’s done this school journeys report with Sustrans. The message from the children is absolutely clear: they enjoy walking, scooting or cycling to school, and nearly half of them do that, but there is a core number of children who are still travelling to school by car—43 per cent—and that is pretty damaging for their health, as well as for the environment. So, I would like to see much more focus by the Government on ensuring that we actually implement the active travel Act, because it does oblige local authorities to ask everyone in the area about making better routes for travelling by bike or on foot. So, I would like to see local authorities asking every school to be involved in making an active travel plan for that school, so that children have the information they need, parents have the information they need, and we can be actively promoting this as the best way of travelling to school, so that they’re ready to learn. I think that large sums of money are taken by local authorities in parking fees, certainly by my local authority, and I want to see more of it spent upon active travel.The thing that is not in the report, and I’m very surprised it’s not in the report, is a reflection of the obesity levels amongst children in Wales. We are the most obese or overweight nation in the UK, and also in Europe. So, we really need to worry about this, and I’m very surprised that it is not reflected in the children’s commissioner’s recommendations. We’ve got 26 per cent of four- and five-year-olds arriving in school overweight or obese, compared with 21 per cent in England. I mean, that is bad as well, but the point is that we are doing even worse than other nations of the UK, and we really need to give a lot more focus to this. Children have a right to be fed normal food, and I find it absolutely despairing to see people feeding sugary drinks in bottles to babies. We need to know that we are really addressing this matter. I know the extended health checks need to pick this up, but really it needs picking up at the very early stages, i.e. at the beginning of the pregnancy and in the first 12 months of the child’s life. I think we also need to adopt the example of St Ninians Primary School in Stirling, where each child in this primary school runs a daily mile. The teachers take their pupils out of lessons onto a specially built circuit around the school for a daily mile whenever it best suits the timetable for that particular class. It’s been going for over four years and there isn’t a single child in that school who is overweight. Why are we not doing this now? Because it doesn’t require extra resources; we might need some modification of the school playground, but really this is not a lot of money, and we really do need action on this matter. I hope that the children’s commissioner will give more emphasis to this important matter. Children have a right to grow up healthy, and that includes healthy food and healthy exercise.

Michelle Brown AC: I fully support the vision for Wales that Sally Holland, the new Children’s Commissioner for Wales, has, where she states that all children and young people should have an equal chance to be the best they can be. We all want that for children and young people in Wales and the rest of the UK. At the minute, it’s too early to give a view on whether the post itself and attendant costs are beneficial to children and young people in Wales. Only time will tell. However, the most telling response will be that of the children of Wales themselves and their feedback. I just wanted to point out one element of the report that is close to my heart, which is page 37 and the piece on school closure consultation. Pupils, via their school council, wrote to the commissioner complaining about their dissatisfaction with the consultation process run by the local authority in relation to school closure proposals. The children felt that the consultation process was poorly run, and they didn’t feel that their voices had been heard. It seems, from reading the report, that the school was still closed anyway, and that the most the pupils got from this was that their voices were heard as regards transition arrangements to their new school. The question I would like to know the answer to is this: whether this means that local authorities, the majority of whom are Labour in Wales, just don’t listen to people and children in their home areas. Are the Welsh Government conceding here that pupils only get their voices heard via a children’s commissioner? It’s a very poor show if that’s the case.

Julie Morgan AC: I also welcome this report and congratulate Sally Holland on it. I also particularly welcome the consultation that has taken place, ‘Beth Nesa’, because it is, as Llyr Gruffydd said, a solid base for her to base her recommendations on. Six-thousand children took part in that consultation, aged three to 18, to try to find out what were the main concerns of children in Wales—what’s the state of children in Wales. I’m very pleased that the commissioner says in her report that the voices that she listened to were not just the voices that perhaps we’d be more likely to hear, but the voices of those children who are seldom heard. She listed homeless children, care leavers, and Gypsy and Traveller children. Of course, I thought it was particularly good that there were 758 responses from under-sevens, because I know our emphasis in this Assembly is trying to reach children as young as possible and I think to reach those children under seven is a great achievement, because I think we do need to consult with children at a very early age and to get information from them about how they feel about their surrounding lives. One of the interesting things that’s not surprising is that, the youngest children consulted, one of the things they wanted was more places to play, because I think we all know how vitally important play is, and, of course, the Welsh Government has been praised for the fact that it has legislated for play. In 1926, David Lloyd George said:'The right to play is the child's first claim on the community. Play is nature's training for life. No community can infringe that right without doing enduring harm to the minds and bodies of its citizens.'I really believe we should be making use of every opportunity we have to create the opportunities for play for our children. So, I think it’s really important that we look at the environment, particularly the built environment, to ensure it reflects the needs of our children. Looking at the survey that the children’s commissioner sent out, the survey asked children to pick up to three favourite places to play from a list of nine places. It’s interesting that 61 per cent of them chose the swimming pool as one of the three favourite places to play, and the other two most popular were parks and beaches. Very few children actually chose the street as one of their favourite places to play. I think that does reflect how society has basically changed, and children aren’t able to go outside their door and play. Obviously, we know that is because of the build-up of traffic, and I think that this is something that we should actually be taking a lot more action on, creating safe places to play. I know that there are such things as play streets and street play games, street play initiatives. But, in order to get children to naturally play as part of their everyday lives, I think that we should be taking a lot more initiatives along those lines. I’d wondered if there was anything the Government could think to do to prompt more street closures, creating safer spaces.I personally think there should be more places in the city centre for children to play. I think it’s very important in an urban environment, and it is important that we get the feedback from children on the places that we do have and what they mean to them. One of the great joys, I think, of this job is meeting school councils when they come into this building and we hear from them, first hand, exactly what their views are, because consultation with children and giving them a chance to have their say I think does really make them realise that they can decide things and they can change things.I think they have been able to do that through the works of the children’s commissioner, because I’m sure people will remember, for many years, there were huge complaints via the children’s commissioner’s reports about school toilets. Now, the school toilets I’ve visited now are much improved; they’re much better. I don’t know if that is reflected by other Members, but, now, I think we need to move on to the provision of public toilets that are suitable for children to use and that are easily available, because I think that is a situation that is getting worse by the day. I think it’s very important that public toilets are available and that libraries have public toilets available, because that doesn’t happen in all libraries.I’d just like to finish with a really great example of where children have been consulted in my constituency. We’ve a group there called ‘Awen at the Library’. It’s been set up to support the arts and develop the library for wider use in the community, and it recently held a competition for children to draw their ideal library. I think seeing those drawings was so stimulating and so interesting. Linking back to the consultation, it‘s really interesting to see that, a lot of the children—the majority—actually had swimming pools in the libraries. They had rooms where they could go and sit quietly, they had soda fountains—they seem to want to bring all the pleasures of their life into the libraries. I thought that was a very interesting reflection of how important the libraries were for them and how they wanted them extended. Thank you very much.

Dawn Bowden AC: Firstly, can I join everybody else in thanking the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and her staff for presenting us with such a comprehensive report? Again, like others, she should be applauded, I think, for the wide-scale consultation undertaken by her and her staff, having met with the thousands of children, parents and professionals that she did.The report does cover several significant areas, and others have really dealt with that, so I just want to cover two, if I may. Firstly, the evidence in the report of a level of concern over the current regime for supporting children and young people with additional learning needs is something that has certainly been raised with me by parents of children with special educational needs, who tell me about their struggle to get the right support for their child. And, in Wales, we've seen a rise of over 6,000 in the number of children with SENs since 2011, and, in Merthyr alone, there are 2,500 SEN children, nearly 200 of whom have statements. So, I was delighted when, in July this year, the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language indicated that a new additional learning needs and educational tribunal Bill will be introduced before Christmas, representing a significant step towards addressing the concerns identified by the children's commissioner, as it moves us towards a more modern, multi-agency approach to dealing with ALN.Secondly, given the economic challenges still faced in many constituencies, like my own in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, I was interested in the report's conclusions on child poverty, and I could spend a lot longer than the few minutes that I've got in this debate this afternoon talking about that particular issue, but I'm pleased that the report recognises that tackling child poverty isn't just a question of parents securing employment. We know that many hard-working men and women are having to cope daily with the scourge of in-work poverty, as outlined earlier by Julie James in her statement. Families with children are continuing to face damaging cuts to welfare support imposed by the Tories in Westminster, keeping them in poverty despite them often being in full-time employment. The enormous strides that were made by the last Labour Government in reducing child poverty have been rolled back, as the most vulnerable in our society continue to be the victims of austerity measures, where the poorest are hit the hardest. In-work poverty, therefore, is very much a theme that I've been focusing on in my constituency and, in the area of employment, stressing the need to ensure that, if new jobs come into an area, they are well-paid, they are not on zero-hours contracts, and they’re provided by companies who have a commitment to becoming a sustainable part of the local community, and who can now link in to the ‘Taking Wales Forward’ programme with local colleges and training providers to deliver skills and training that employers need. Because parents in skilled, secure, long-term employment are a crucial element in taking children out of poverty.I'm also hopeful that the renewed commitment of the Welsh Government to support Flying Start and Families First with a more flexible tackling poverty framework and a cohesive community-based approach to tackling child poverty, through decent, sustainable employment, supported by Welsh Government when necessary, will start to address the issues identified by the commissioner, because, frankly, we cannot allow us to fail this generation of children.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I speak in this debate today in my capacity as Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. At the end of the fourth Assembly, the committee suggested in its legacy report that we should consider exploring issues surrounding the appointment and accountability of commissioners. It did so because it saw these as important matters of constitutional principle. Following our report on the Wales Bill, we have started to address our forward work programme and, as part of that process, we’ve been considering the merits of undertaking some work on the appointment and accountability of commissioners. As a first step in this process, we held an informal, productive meeting with some experts yesterday. While we have not fully formed our thinking on these issues, I thought it appropriate to draw the Assembly’s attention to the likelihood of the committee taking forward work in this area. With the approval of the Business Committee, I intend to make a committee statement on our agreed way forward in due course. Thank you very much.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to respond to the debate.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I thank Members for their comments on the report today. This report outlines the excellent work of the commissioner and her office, and raises important practical issues affecting children and young people. I listened very carefully to the contributions of Members here this afternoon.I continue to work closely with the commissioner to ensure that all children receive the active offer of advocacy. This offer is a priority within the implementation plan for a national approach to advocacy, and I’m aware that Llyr and others raised that particular issue. Our programme of ‘Taking Wales Forward’ includes a range of commitments that will have a direct impact on delivering the objectives of our child poverty strategy. Dawn Bowden made strong references to the impact that in-work poverty particularly has on families and young people. It’s something that we are very conscious of, and working across Government with, particularly, Ken Skates, the lead Minister. Tackling poverty is something that we’re conscious of in terms of our manifesto commitments on jobs, growth and opportunity. The commissioner has welcomed our commitment to providing children with equal protection. ‘Taking Wales Forward’ reaffirms our intention to take forward on a cross-party basis legislation that will remove the defence of reasonable punishment. We need to help parents with ways of being the very best they can for their children. Jenny did mention the issue of growing up healthy, and part of that programme is about encouraging parents to be good parents so that they can give their young children a good start in life. I’d like to pick up on some of the points that Members have raised and have strong views on here today. I’ll try to respond to the majority of those points, if I may. On the first issue, Darren Millar mentioned home education registration, as well as Llyr, and they had slightly opposing views, but the principle I think behind both Members’ comments was about the protection of young people, and I think that’s what we’ve got to be mindful of. Kirsty Williams and myself are in discussions about what they may look like for the future, but, ultimately, the issue for us all should be around the safeguarding of an individual. I think that’s what has to drive our decision-making process but I do recognise that there is also lots of evidence from either side that is presented to both ourselves and Members in terms of making decisions longer term. Can I pick up the issue of mental health and child and adolescent mental health services? Again, I think we’ve made great strides in terms of delivery. Darren Millar mentioned the unit that is within his constituency, a flagship unit, and I’m grateful to him for raising that issue here today, recognising the great work that goes on there. But I think what we also have to do is turn the telescope the other way round, actually, because treating mental health is a fact, and we have to do that, and continue to do that, but, actually, what we’ve got to do is stop young people suffering from mental health issues in the first place. The start of that journey is around the things that Jenny has talked about and Julie has talked about—the well-being of an individual, with a rounded approach to success, tackling the issues around adverse childhood experiences so we don’t fall into that trap of mental health services later on. We’re firefighting at that end. Actually, what we want to do is stop the feed, stop them coming into the system in the first place. That’s why the Government’s approach around health and well-being is around prevention and early intervention. I think that’s absolutely the right thing to do. We are conscious of the pressures in the CAMHS system, but we strive to deliver on that. Darren Millar made reference to the independence of the commissioner and commissioners, and it would be wrong to say that the Assembly doesn’t have a role in this, because the scrutiny and call-in procedures of committees are current, and Members can call in the commissioner to independently scrutinise that process away from Government. So I don’t recognise the issue around compromising commissioners and their ability to be independent. The Assembly does have a strong role in that.

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m just conscious of the time, if I may.The issue of making sure that we look at young people through their lifestyle and how they grow up: Jenny, you’ll be familiar, I hope, with the 1000 days project that we are running in some of the programmes where we look at pre birth up to the age of two—a very successful programme, again, looking at the opportunities and how the brain forms in a young person in that two-year period; it’s a very important one. On the daily mile, as you talk about, in schools, I can assure you that we are doing it in schools. I declare an interest, not in doing the daily mile, but my wife is in Bryn Deva school in Flintshire, which does that on a daily basis. So, they should be congratulated, and many other schools across Wales are contributing to the well-being of our young people.I’ll pick up the point of Michelle Brown. I’m slightly disappointed with her comments trying to suggest that we don’t listen to people, and in particular we don’t listen to young people. I’ll remind the Member that this Government introduced the children’s commissioner and this Government introduced the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act, and we’ll take no lectures off the Member in terms of this. The most damaging thing I think we’ve got to think about with our children is the way we’ve approached Brexit and the racist comments that come from her party with regard to young people in the communities that we all represent. That’s the real problem we have for our young people.Llywydd, I’m grateful for the opportunity to respond to this debate today. We won’t be supporting the amendments, as I alluded to earlier, on the basis that we will be giving full consideration to the commissioner’s report and deliberating that over the next few weeks, through a consultation programme. I’m grateful for the majority of Members’ comments, and I also wish to place on record this Government’s congratulations to the commissioner and her office.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We’ve now reached voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

9. 9. Voting Time

I call for a vote on amendment 1 on the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’s annual report, the amendment tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, eight, no abstentions, 35 against. The amendment is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 8, Against 35, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6136.Click to see vote results

I call now for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 18, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 18, Against 25, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 2 to motion NDM6136.Click to see vote results

I call therefore for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour, 43, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion NDM6136 agreed: For 43, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6136. Click to see vote results

That brings today’s proceedings to an end.

The meeting ended at 17:33.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the First Minister make a statement on the implementation of Rent Smart Wales?

Mark Drakeford: As we approach the end of the first year of the scheme, nearly 50,000 private landlords have registered. Another 11,000 or so have already started the registration process. The first year has been light touch, focusing on awareness raising. From next week, the focus will be on compliance.

Hannah Blythyn: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's commitment to sustaining Wales's sporting successes?

Mark Drakeford: This year has been an outstanding one for Welsh sport. The Welsh Government remains committed to building on successes achieved in community and elite sport. Our investment in sport, via Sport Wales, aims at making Wales prominent on the world stage, helping inspire people to become more active and achieve excellence.

Jayne Bryant: What steps are the Welsh Government taking to improve financial education in schools?

Mark Drakeford: The current curriculum requires financial education for all learners. Estyn is reviewing provision in schools and will publish recommendations in the spring on how financial education can improve. In Financial Capability Week, I should highlight our partnership with the Money Advice Service, which supports money management teaching in schools.

Paul Davies: Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's economic priorities for Pembrokeshire?

Mark Drakeford: Our economic priorities for Pembrokeshire include creating the right support environment and infrastructure for businesses to flourish, including improvements in the transport network, particularly along the A40.